I like the Simpsons but hate the dogma, or just dogma in general!

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Hey man don't be rude.

You seem overly focused on people's opinions and how they respond to your opinions.

Also I, like old mate Patches, greatly question your contrarian stance on media, and would also go as far to say that you are not much better than the dogmatic, elitist fans that you constantly deride.

Again I must emphasise that this forum and many other forums related to the Simpsons do not have a dogmatic viewpoint of the show. Where are you finding these elitist Simpsons fans who deride anyone who likes episodes past the classic era?

You say that elitist fans need to be less butthurt about opinions you hold, but are you not butthurt yourself? Everything you say in your "dogma is cancer" reply has an emotional feel to it, like you take people calling your opinions "objectively wrong" as a slight against your own character.

And please do share your unpopular opinions. But make sure you present them in a calm manner that does not deride anyone for holding a particular opinion
I am overly focused because I feel that certain members of the no-homers club are treating me as if I have poor judgement in regards to art and fiction. Excuse me? But that is an elitist attitude that needs to stop. That is a form of harassment or bullying.

I am in no way saying that Simpsons fans are wrong for putting it (the older episodes) on a pedestal. Let them! They are welcome to do so. But they shouldn't go around telling Simpsons haters that they (Simpsons fans) are "objectively right" and that they (Simpsons haters) are "objectively wrong." I'm sorry. But neither party is objectively right or wrong. It's just simply a difference of opinion. Simpsons haters don't belong on any Simpsons fan site, anyway. As long as the haters leave this site alone, so should the fans towards anti-Simpsons posts on Reddit or something like that. Why don't we all just get along?

I may be a lesser Simpsons fan but that doesn't mean I don't like it, of course I do. I do have problems with it, and the elitism of a number of Simpsons fans is one of them.

I am a sensitive 29 year old male who happens to be Autistic; I have Asperger's in particular. I try not to judge or offend anyone but I don't take too kindly to those who are being fucking assholes, either towards people like me who dislikes certain aspects of something (besides the Simpsons) or to those who either don't like something at all.
 
I disagree that there's no objectively good or bad and it's all based on opinion. There is such a thing as critical consensus.
There is NO objectively good or bad. Morality is an opinion. Of course, it's all based on opinion, to say otherwise is a form of elitist dogma like you're doing and what I'm highly against. I can tell you are of those people who holds "morality is objective or it's a fact" stance. OK. To each their own. But what you're saying is STILL your opinion. Yes, there is a general consensus, which is not bad in and of itself, but you have to remember, consensus is tied to and amendable to opinion; emotion and thought.
Like I do not care for the Mona Lisa painting but that doesn't make it bad, it's very good, everything is in proportion, the lighting and shadow is well done, the textures are realistic, the color choice is not garish or clashing. I just personally find the expression on her face unnerving and so I dislike a good painting.
Again, you're entitled to how you wish to define "good art" or "bad art". But what you're saying has to do with your values, which are clearly different from mine. To me, there is absolutely NO difference between liking or disliking something, fiction and art included, and calling something good or bad. I said earlier that the reason I call, for example, The Simpsons good is because I like it. I respect and enjoy it. I feel for it. That's how it should be. If you like something, then it IS good, to you. To say "I like it but it isn't exactly good" makes no sense. Enjoyment and goodness are inseparable; they go hand in hand! But apparently, you believe otherwise, so who am I to judge? May we agree to disagree. :)
I also find in unnecessarily confrontational to describe others as having elitist views that are cancer. You say they won't let you disagree but are you doing the same thing by dismissing them?
Well, that is what I believe, not what YOU believe. If you believe elitism and dogma is great, good for you. I am dismissing them because they
I really hope you post about other topics because I find all this dogma talk boring and repetitive. (Doesn't make this a bad topic, though.)
Maybe you think it's boring and repetitive, but I don't. I think it's important that I say what I will.
 
I don't want to nitpick but I feel compelled to tell you that this has nothing to do with anything else you said. Appraisal of art on purely artistic grounds have nothing to do with morality. If I see a painting and say "this is ugly" it's not a moral judgement, it's an artistic judgement. I absolutely agree with you that moral judgement is a matter of opinion and not fact, and I also agree with you that artistic judgement is opinion and not fact. But still artistic judgements and moral judgements are two different things. Your comment about morality in a text about the subjectivity regarding the quality of The Simpsons comes right out of the blue.
Well, appraisal of art and fiction may not be tied to morality in your book, but it does in mine because both appraisal of art and morality deal with what we believe to be good or bad/right or wrong. "Good" and "bad" are relative terms because they are different in meaning from one another. They are also both subjective (therefore opinion-based) because they are tied to our feelings and our thoughts. So there is (sort of) an overlap between art and morality.
Sorry, I don't mean to be a know-it-all but I cant help myself.
:lol:
Anyway, in regards to the actual topic, I understand your point regarding how The Simpsons is one of those things where the idea that, at least it's golden age, is of great quality has almost become accepted as objectively true. Honestly, I feel that in this regard The Simpsons is to the medium of television what Don Quixote is to literature or what the Sistine chapel's ceiling paintings is to visual art. It's one of the things where it might be okay to say "I personally don't like it" but it's not okay to say "It's bad". And regardless of what one personally think is reasonable when it comes to the question of whether art can be objectivey good or bad, the sheer fact that the golden age of The Simpsons appears to be one of the few television shows that have found itself, in popular opinion, in the "objectively good" camp is interesting. How many other television shows are comparable to The Simpsons in that specific regard? As fas as television shows that are universally known (as opposed to ones that may have recieved nearly unanimous praise but are too obscure to be placed in the "everybody knows it's great" category) I can think of one; Seinfeld. Saying "Seinfeld is a bad show, and by that I don't mean that I personally don't like it but rather that it's simply bad" will make anyone lose all credibility as far as their understanding of scripted television shows go. Classic Simpsons is in the same boat.
I strongly disagree with the idea that "I personally don't like it" and "It's bad" are different in meaning. No, they aren't! If I don't like something, then it IS bad, to me. At least that's how I would rate something. If I give a work of art or fiction a low star rating, it's because I detest it; it has to do with my thoughts AND my emotions on it. Just because a movie may be (sometimes surprisingly) highly rated on IMDB, doesn't mean it's "objectively good" or that I must accept it as such. I could name examples of fictional works, such as movies, that I call "bad" but I won't because so many people won't understand or (worse yet) they would "debunk" my contentions and call me a "baby". But here's the thing though, The Simpsons is not objective good.

The Simpsons is subjectively good. The Simpsons is objectively an American animated television series that started in 1989 and created by Matt Groening.

The former statement is a matter of opinion and the latter is a matter of fact.

And it's funny how you mentioned Seinfeld. No pun intended. Because to me, it's a terrible sitcom because I don't like it, but SO many people do like it and think it's a great sitcom. Good for them. That's the same way how I feel about M*A*S*H; it's unfunny trash (which rhymes with mash) to me, but to "everyone else" it's a witty masterpiece.

And anyone reading my post, PLEASE don't get all butthurt because I said M*A*S*H is unfunny trash because it is to me. I fucking hate that show! It's shit! The movie as well. So, please don't judge me for having the contrarian and frankly unpopular opinion.

Personally, The Simpsons is FAR superior to Seinfeld and M*A*S*H because I enjoy The Simpsons WAY more! The Simpsons is a great show when compared to M*A*S*H and Seinfeld. It's all relative (to my opinion)!
I am one of those people that can be annoyed by the universal insistance that something is good (or bad) but I have to be honest and say that I can't bring myself to be upset with the fact that classic Simpsons of all things have acchieved the "objectively good" stamp due to the simple fact that I personally truly think it's the best television show of all time.
Well, if you ask me, it's very contradictory of someone to say that "I don't like X" and say "X is great." What the fuck?! I can't and won't call something or someone I don't like great. Never! I refuse! I would only call something or someone great because I like them. I proudly rate things by a binary system. My enjoyment of something or someone cannot be separated from its greatness.
 
Before you type your next long rant I have to inform you on something...

This is a terrible way to deal with an argument.

The post you're responding to wasn't hostile whatsoever, and even somewhat sympathetic towards your predicament. So try actually reading through what they're trying to say instead of instinctively firing off a huge angry response. If you're never gonna listen to differing opinions you will lose people's patience instead of making others able to see where you are coming from. I know it's easy to get emotional about something you have strong feelings about, but don't direct the anger at someone who doesn't have ill intent.
OK. Fair enough.
 
@JacobZeier1992 I have to agree, as sharing your thoughts in an aggressive manner can cause a problem to users. There are many people that may have anger issues or can easily got hurt with their feelings. I know most of them in the club are adults, but there could be teenagers in the club, as they could have self-control issues over time. So, please, think about something in a nicer, assertive manner next time because there may be people that are prone to mood swings.

Also, btw, I have to agree about @OldSchoolerSimpsons. Introducing yourself is good, but the rest of it felt too much of an aggressive thread, even though the points are interesting and neat. However, this aggressive, good argument is actually understandable to me, so that's why I talked about that.
Yeah. But I'm an extremely honest person and yes, admittedly, I do get a bit pissy at times. But I am so because I have the instinct that there are those who are out to judge me the wrong way and very quickly. I've dealt with people in the past, mainly online, who have kicked me around, deriding my unpopular and contrarian views on things. You could say I'm an ugly duckling of sorts.
 
I think it would help you feel better if you tried to emphasize with other people's views and opinions more without paying mind to whether they're popular or unpopular! There are many many things that do not appeal to me but I can still listen to why the majority of people like it as much as they do and acknowledge that it has interesting and well executed things about it, which makes them popular (even if I strongly dislike it).

The Simpsons is great, in my opinion, in part because it manages to appeal to many people for a variety of reasons, and capturing the attention of such a big audience is part of a success formula that writers and artists work and perfect on for many years!
 
I think it would help you feel better if you tried to emphasize with other people's views and opinions more without paying mind to whether they're popular or unpopular! There are many many things that do not appeal to me but I can still listen to why the majority of people like it as much as they do and acknowledge that it has interesting and well executed things about it, which makes them popular (even if I strongly dislike it).

The Simpsons is great, in my opinion, in part because it manages to appeal to many people for a variety of reasons, and capturing the attention of such a big audience is part of a success formula that writers and artists work and perfect on for many years!
Good for you. :thumbsup:But in my opinion, The Simpsons is good. :) The reason, ditto, because I like it. Nothing to do with hearsay, dogma or hype, I just think it's good as fucking hell out of my own pleasure. Same goes for everything I believe constitutes good art or fiction.

However, I do think there are some bad aspects to the Simpsons that I really don't think should exist, some that I'm willing to accept and some I won't tolerate at all. Not all Simpsons episodes are created equal, as you know. Some episodes I call "good" (I like 'em) and others which I call "bad" (I don't like 'em). This simply has to do with moral judgement. There are some "good" episodes like Bart The Genius (Season 1, 1990), I Am Furious (Yellow) (Season 13, 2002), King-Sized Homer (Season 7, 1995), Mobile Homer (Season 16, 2005), to name just four. But those episodes are good to me because I like them. One of the aforementioned episodes is extremely popular and I just happen to like it, not because it's popular. To like it for that very reason isn't being honest with yourself and it's just plain silly. Correlation is not causation!

Liking is a choice, be it food, music, clothes, hairstyles, people (famous or not), movies, TV shows, games, whatever. If it's good to me, then it's good to me. I always choose who or what I like! But I don't choose to like something. That's where people get confused with what I mean by saying "liking is a choice". It's in the wording; the sentence structure. My likes/choices come naturally as they should. I learn what or who they are and I decide for them. It's simple. I've been quite picky for a lifetime and proudly so.
 
don't mind me
So? What is that supposed to mean? I know I'm not very popular. I may be a lesser Simpsons fan but it doesn't mean I'm not a fan at all. I am still a fan. Fandom is a spectrum. Some people aren't fans (they're haters) and some are hard-core fans! But I'm somewhere in between. But I definitely like more than I don't.
 
Maybe don't call me elitist and say you're highly against my opinions if you want to have a productive discussion. I think you are crusading against windmills arguing that people feel you have bad judgement and whatnot. Nobody here has said that.

I still think morality is not objective. Some things are morally wrong. A serial rapist may enjoy assaulting his victims but that doesn't make his behavior good, even if it feels good to him.

And I do find it possible to enjoy bad art. My boyfriend Johnny and I watch a lot of mst3k and the hand of manos is a confusing, poorly acted and bizarre mess but it's funny as hell to watch this bad film.
 
Maybe don't call me elitist and say you're highly against my opinions if you want to have a productive discussion. I think you are crusading against windmills arguing that people feel you have bad judgement and whatnot. Nobody here has said that.

I still think morality is not objective. Some things are morally wrong. A serial rapist may enjoy assaulting his victims but that doesn't make his behavior good, even if it feels good to him.

And I do find it possible to enjoy bad art. My boyfriend Johnny and I watch a lot of mst3k and the hand of manos is a confusing, poorly acted and bizarre mess but it's funny as hell to watch this bad film.
"Liking bad art"?! What the hellish fuck?! That's a paradox in itself. Why call art or fiction "bad" if you like it? Such an attitude is very condescending and frankly hypocritical as is if "bad art" or "bad fiction" is "scientific fact". It's NOT! Art is relative to the mind of the perceiver. Same goes for morality and beauty. It's all a matter of opinion!

Art is subjective!

If I like the art or fiction, then it IS good (to me)! NEVER bad! I CANNOT and WILL NOT separate "good fiction" and "fiction I like" because they literally mean the same fucking damn thing! At least to me! Best = favorite! If I like a certain work of fiction or art the most, it IS the best (to me.)

And in regards to your Manos: The Hands Of Fate example, yes, MOST people call it a bad movie, but not EVERYONE sees it as such. There are at least a few people who would call it great because they like it a hell of a lot. They may even go as far as saying it's one of the greatest movies of all time. And who are we to tell them they can't hold it in high regard? That's none of our business! Let people like whatever they want, including me!

So please kindly pack your bags of bigotry and go away! You are not welcome to tell me right from wrong in regards to fiction and art.
 
What is your damage?

You shouldn't call people bigoted when they haven't expressed any racist, sexist, or homophobic opinions. Bigoted does not mean "disagrees with your weirdly rigid beliefs on the inherent good or bad qualities of art and how it is tied to your emotions or perception."

PS I never said you can't like what you want, either.
 
Which is what I despise! It must stop!
Perhaps the reason people are put off by you is that your approach to conversation is fundamentally antagonistic. You use blanket statements to dismiss and deride other people, encouraging them to respond in kind (like GlitterCat above). You make no concessions for their viewpoints, avoid finding any common ground, attempt to command others to acquiesce or fall in line, and seem to struggle to empathise with them (perhaps as a result of being neurodivergent). Recognising this, treating others with kindness, and being more flexible in your discourse would make a huge difference in your interactions with others especially those with whom you disagree.
 
What is your damage?

You shouldn't call people bigoted when they haven't expressed any racist, sexist, or homophobic opinions. Bigoted does not mean "disagrees with your weirdly rigid beliefs on the inherent good or bad qualities of art and how it is tied to your emotions or perception."

PS I never said you can't like what you want, either.
@JacobZeier1992 Btw, you probably don't know what this word means. If you do, don't call them that word again; that's the worst way to describe them. Also, your mental problem must be really bad; I can tell this could either be part of your mental health disorder, smoking, drinking, etc. Please take care of yourself better next time. I know you are different, but it is best to be yourself better and not too apparently harsh. If you're trying and it does not help for you, then I don't think you belong here because of your actions and aggressive behavior. Sorry...

I'm not mean, just trying to make sure anyone is safe and alright, as well as making sure you are not actually causing a problem on here. (And sorry, my eyes are tired)
 
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This whole thread is a mess but I do think there's a difference between viewing art in an objective way and the art itself being objectively good or bad. Even looking at it from the viewpoint of art objectively not being what someone was going for, that only works if you count artist intention when viewing art which people may not agree with due to death of the author.

I have nothing to say about The Simpsons here because I feel at this point how any of what's discussed here relates to the Simpsons barely makes sense to me. I am objectively confused.
 
I think this discussion is getting too much. It should be locked for a reason because if those problems don't stop, they're gonna make it even worse and crazy.
 
Perhaps the reason people are put off by you is that your approach to conversation is fundamentally antagonistic. You use blanket statements to dismiss and deride other people, encouraging them to respond in kind (like GlitterCat above). You make no concessions for their viewpoints, avoid finding any common ground, attempt to command others to acquiesce or fall in line, and seem to struggle to empathise with them (perhaps as a result of being neurodivergent). Recognising this, treating others with kindness, and being more flexible in your discourse would make a huge difference in your interactions with others especially those with whom you disagree.
It's hard for me to treat others with kindness if they have elistist attitudes to begin with. Not just to me but others who might think as I do.

I don't need to be told how I'm supposed to categorize "good" from "bad". Morality is not a fact, it's an opinion.

If they're NOT telling me how I should judge things, like art and fiction, then I would just ignore them. But if they ARE telling me how I should judge things, then I do feel the need to reply to them. The more judgmental I perceive them as, the more likely I would tell them off! I am very sensitive and at times I have to stand up for myself as well as others who are in the minority.

If something is good to me, then I like it. If something is bad to me, then I don't like it. That's how I operate. Even though that's not how a lot of people operate. They have this "morality is not an opinion" mindset and GlitterCat is definitely no exception. I can't change how people think and how they categorize "good" from "bad". If they want to call something good or bad regardless of whether they like it or not, that's their philosophy. It's definitely not mine. They are who they are and I am who I am. People are entitled to their opinions even if I think some are worse than others. But again, they will say and do what they will, even if they're being conceited, provocative or deviant. I'll leave them alone as long as they leave me alone. I believe in mutual respect. May we agree to disagree.
 
This whole thread is a mess but I do think there's a difference between viewing art in an objective way and the art itself being objectively good or bad. Even looking at it from the viewpoint of art objectively not being what someone was going for, that only works if you count artist intention when viewing art which people may not agree with due to death of the author.

I have nothing to say about The Simpsons here because I feel at this point how any of what's discussed here relates to the Simpsons barely makes sense to me. I am objectively confused.
You're entitled to your view though I respectfully disagree. You have your ideas and I have mine. So let's put our differences aside.
 
@JacobZeier1992 Btw, you probably don't know what this word means. If you do, don't call them that word again; that's the worst way to describe them. Also, your mental problem must be really bad; I can tell this could either be part of your mental health disorder, smoking, drinking, etc. Please take care of yourself better next time. I know you are different, but it is best to be yourself better and not too apparently harsh. If you're trying and it does not help for you, then I don't think you belong here because of your actions and aggressive behavior. Sorry...

I'm not mean, just trying to make sure anyone is safe and alright, as well as making sure you are not actually causing a problem on here. (And sorry, my eyes are tired)
It may not be nice but it's (kind of) true. "Elitist" basically means "having a big ego and/or pompously agreeing to what is believed to be true and deriding others who speak on the contrary". I don't like smoking, doing bad drugs or drinking alcohol. I don't do such activity. I am speaking my mind without being under the influence of alcohol, tobacco, bad drugs, etc. But you're right. I should just cool it. But I do want to stay on this site.
 
It may not be nice but it's (kind of) true. "Elitist" basically means "having a big ego and/or pompously agreeing to what is believed to be true and deriding others who speak on the contrary". I don't like smoking, doing bad drugs or drinking alcohol. I don't do such activity. I am speaking my mind without being under the influence of alcohol, tobacco, bad drugs, etc. But you're right. I should just cool it. But I do want to stay on this site.
You do not understand. She is telling you not to use the word 'bigot' because she (and others) feel that you are using the word in an inappropriate manner.
 
I am overly focused because I feel that certain members of the no-homers club are treating me as if I have poor judgement in regards to art and fiction. Excuse me? But that is an elitist attitude that needs to stop. That is a form of harassment or bullying.

I am in no way saying that Simpsons fans are wrong for putting it (the older episodes) on a pedestal. Let them! They are welcome to do so. But they shouldn't go around telling Simpsons haters that they (Simpsons fans) are "objectively right" and that they (Simpsons haters) are "objectively wrong." I'm sorry. But neither party is objectively right or wrong. It's just simply a difference of opinion. Simpsons haters don't belong on any Simpsons fan site, anyway. As long as the haters leave this site alone, so should the fans towards anti-Simpsons posts on Reddit or something like that. Why don't we all just get along?

I may be a lesser Simpsons fan but that doesn't mean I don't like it, of course I do. I do have problems with it, and the elitism of a number of Simpsons fans is one of them.

I am a sensitive 29 year old male who happens to be Autistic; I have Asperger's in particular. I try not to judge or offend anyone but I don't take too kindly to those who are being fucking assholes, either towards people like me who dislikes certain aspects of something (besides the Simpsons) or to those who either don't like something at all.

Again I have to emphasise that this dogmatic view you are extremely bothered by is not all that common in my experience. There are cases where people look down upon others for holding certain views on media, but these are usually rare and don't really warrant the wrath you have shown in this thread.

And are you calling me elitist and a bully? I don't think I've shown any elitist views in this thread.

I think you're also a bit of a hypocrite. You want your views to be respected and yet there are many times where you have shown disrespect towards people views in this thread (eg. you respond to "liking bad art" by saying "what the hellish fuck?")

You've also shown a disdain towards those who like things because they are popular. Yet you admit yourself that you dislike things because they are popular. That feels contradictory of your own views.


Again, this is an interesting discussion to be had, I just don't think the OP has gone in with the right mindset.

p.s. I too am autistic so I can relate to some of the anger and confusion you seem to have. But I think there are still better ways to handle this.
 
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