When did you notice the show was declining?

I've always loved the fact that for some people, one bad episode instantly means the beginning of a downfall for a show because of course after seven or eight seasons, bad episodes can't happen, not even once in a while.

I too think that is really quite a silly notion, but everyone who has that opinion can have it. Doesn't bother me.

One reason I've always considered season 8 my favorite of the show (although I don't know if that's still the case today, but I still love it) is because it's sort of a transition. Yes, it sort of ripped the universe and the style of the show as it was before it, but most of the time, in a good, interesting, and like Nitsy said, "daring" way. It became more absurd to enhance the point of some episodes in a good way, like You Only Move Twice and the Shary Bobbins one. There's never gonna be an episode like Homer's Enemy, despite exaggerating Homer's behavior for the sake of its twisted point of view (kinda like what Lisa the Simpson did one season later). The Simpsons Spin-Off Showcase is a very fun experiment anticipating the show being milked to the last drop. Yes, the show was a little different at the time, but in my opinion, in the best way possible, and I feel like Scully tried to imitate it without getting its magic quite right.

This, very much. Season 8 was definitely the experimental oddball season that really did a lot of new things (and to mostly great effect), ad some really absurd premises and even changed up the status quo here and there & that is one of the reasons I think it's great and oh so interesting and colroful. It did change the overall style of the show some ("ripped the universe" I think is a kinda funny way of putting it, but is more or less an apt description in a sense) but I don't see it as a negative, but something new and fresh.

It really did feel like Oakley & Weinstein (bless them and their work) really took a lot of things to the max and weren't afraid of certain things that were "taboo" (such as, again, 'My Sister, My Sitter' with it's dark take on sibling rivalry gone bad) and it did come off as the show was winding down and nearing its end, but it all changed when the Scully attacked.

Speaking of which, when I was a kid, I was a little like Wire hangers. I noticed the difference between some seasons, but I didn't care as long as what I was watching was funny, and that's why young me prefered the gagfest that Scully era was over, say, season 1 for example. It changed obviously, but it was noticeable to me, even at the time, that Scully prefered a faster pacing, and yet, I can see what has led him to adopt the style he adopted through the era he produced.

I get what you mean. Very initially when I started watching (maybe especially before I joined the board, let alone really had any of the DVDs) I didn't especially care about any differences between showrunner eras and enjoyed most that I saw as l(I seem to often circulate around season 12 for some reason, I seem to remember?), but once I did get into the show, joined this place I did start to look at it more analytically and it was apparent that the Scully era was the really weird one with a particular cartoony style, different structure & quicker pacing and while I didn't hate it like some, I could see and understand why it signaled the decline.

My point is, I don't think there's a moment the show suddenly declined, but instead, I'd say it's an accumulation of things that were interpreted in a personal way and ultimately didn't land for a lot of people. That said, to me, even as a kid, season 17 was the moment I started feeling bored by a number of the episodes it was filled with, and not bored like "season 1 bored", I just felt like something was definitely off.

In regards to that first thing, that is well put and agreeable. It wasn't a particular point the show hit a sign of decline, but a gradual build that soon made itself very apparent, both seen and heard.

As for the second point, when viewing the seasons in order, I also find that the later SD Jean era (post season 16) was pretty much the real point when I didn't find the show as consistently enjoyable anymore: The Scully era has a lot of problems but it still was (and is) funny and memorable & the first half of the Jean era is entertaining and fun overall (with 14 & 15 probably being the highlight of the post-classic era), but around 17-18 it started to feel, in retrospecte specially, kinda dull and tired and not as entertaining. After that, the show has, as said, been very on & off and up & down with the overall quality and never really hit a consistent stride again.
 
I can understand if the meanness of it with Bart being an ass can be a turn-off
Is it really about Bart being an ass though? That alone wouldn't be an issue, but this goes way beyond that. He takes sadistic joy out of dislocating his shoulder and beats his head against a wall until he knocks himself unconscious. Just to be spiteful? I mean, come on. That’s absolutely deranged and no sane 10 year-old, no matter how much of an anti-authoritarian they are, would wilfully do such a thing. Meanwhile, her brother is seriously hurt, and Lisa can only think about her reputation to the point of trying to cover it up? This is such a far cry from who these kids were and who they should be.
 
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Is it really about Bart being an ass though? That alone would not be an issue, but this goes way beyond that.

Well, much of it is about him acting like an out of control asshole and Lisa trying to handle him so I'd say pretty much.

He takes sadistic joy out of dislocating his shoulder and knocks himself unconscious. I mean, come on. That’s absolutely deranged and no sane 10 year-old, no matter how much of an anti-authoritarian they are, would wilfully do such a thing.

First off, he didn't dislocate his shoulder intentionally as he fell down the damn stairs by accident (but did get the idea to use it against Lisa in his pettiness). Second, he was trying to make the bump on his head bigger (not knock himself out), but he was being a thoughtless idiot regarding the latter (seriously, that was really stupid of him. Not one of his brightest moments.).

Seriously, you make it sound like he intentionally did those things out of sadistic tendencies which wasn't the case, but, again, neither the shoulder nor making himself unconscious were intentional but accidental, but the results of trying to make things miserable for Lisa (and the bump thing was due to him letting his anti-authoritarian lust to get Lisa into trouble get the best of him,

Also the episode is another example of the show, even in the classic era exaggering characterizations for the sake of the plot, with this one being a dark take on a sibling rivalry (also Bart was the bad guy who did suffer due to his careless idiocy).

Meanwhile, her brother is seriously hurt, and Lisa can only think about her reputation to the point of trying to cover it up? This is such a far cry from who these kids were and who they should be.

She was shocked, afraid and panicked, dude. As an 8-year old little girl, I think she acted pretty much as I'd expect someone her age, intellectual or not would, not thinking logically and not clearly when incidents like this would happen, trying to fix things quietly and worrying about something like a personal reputation (in Lisa's case). Also, at least she tried to help Bart (despite him having been so cruel), even though it was badly planned and she just quickly made up stuff as she went along.

I could see both of them acting like this when in a darker and dramatic situation like this in the episode (especially Lisa under that pressure and torment Bart put her through). I am not against showing characters in a darker light, as flawed individuals (who sometimes make dumb and irrational decisions) and in fairly realistic situations like this (even though there's some absurd stuff going on here) and I think it makes for a rather fascinating, if really unconventional and different episode.

With your distate of this episode (and thinking of your surprisingly harsh criticism against DS9), as I understand it, you have a really hard time when a show break away from the "classic" style mold and characterizations for the darker & meaner, deviating with episodes like this one (with Bart being a jerkass to his sister, exaggerated but believable) as it goes against your preferred way of how the show is constructed with it's formula/backbone and all that jazz & yeah, I can understand that preferrence.

Still, you saying how it is "a far cry how these kids were and how they should be" feels a bit too ridgid & strict way of thinking even to me. I'm fine with an episode like this as despite the darker, flawed characterizations and exaggerations in places, at the bottom of things I still clearly recognize the classic era characters of Bart & Lisa with the same innate humor, charm & soul as shown in the other episodes of the golden age (which the Scully era can't tout so well, as it got a lot of things wrong with the characters and missed out on the heart & soul, which 'My Sister' also has despite it's grimmer and sinister moments).

Oakley & Weinstein often seemed to push the characters to their limits (such as in this episode) and I think that worked out really well as part of the experimentational side of their showrunning tenure, but yeah, I can definitely understand some having a problem with it (and this episode, being a love it or hate it one, among those in particular).
 
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For Bart Star I dont remember why
That episode for me is Season 9's other major loser besides Miracle on Evergreen Terrace. The episode is just very unfair to Bart as he knows he's not very good yet thanks to Homer he's forced into situations he has no control over and everybody hates him despite it not being his fault. And how does the episode end? "Rewarding" him by sending off to jail because even when he tries to do the right thing he still loses!
 
Still, you saying how it is "a far cry how these kids were and how they should be" feels a bit too ridgid & strict way of thinking even to me.
Your response was much longer than I expected and I can't spare enough time to address each point, but this jumped out at me. I think this is a tad unfair, to be honest. I realise you like what the episode sets out to do and there’s absolutely nothing wrong that. I have no desire to rob you of that or tell you you’re wrong. As I said yesterday in another thread, we all have different tolerances and the events depicted in this episode simply exceed mine.

For me – and I only speak for myself – things cross the line when Bart engages in self-harm. I’ve hit my head once or twice and it bloody hurts man. I can’t fathom doing that deliberately let alone to the point of knocking yourself out cold. It’s not just stupid – it’s disturbed. Maybe the intention wasn’t for it to seem that dark or serious, but that in itself displays a flippancy I find off-putting. I know this is just an animated sitcom, but I can’t stomach seeing a 10 year-old bash his head against a door to exacerbate an injury out of spite towards a sibling. I hope that doesn’t make me sound rigid – my goal is always to be the opposite – but I have to stick to that.

P.S. I haven’t yet elaborated on my views regarding DS9 which are far more extensive than it simply deviates from previous Trek, but that’s for another thread and another day.
 
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Your response was much longer than I expected and I can't spare enough time to address each point, but this jumped out at me. I think this is a tad unfair, to be honest. I realise you like what the episode sets out to do and there’s absolutely nothing wrong that. I have no desire to rob you of that or tell you you’re wrong. As I said yesterday in another thread, we all have different tolerances and the events depicted in this episode simply exceed mine. For me – and I only speak for myself – things cross the line when Bart engages in self-harm. I’ve hit my head once or twice and it bloody hurts man. I can’t fathom doing that deliberately let alone to the point of knocking yourself out cold. It’s not just stupid – it’s disturbed. Maybe the intention wasn’t for it to seem that dark or serious, but that in itself displays a flippancy I find off-putting. I know this is just an animated sitcom, but I can’t stomach seeing a 10 year-old bash his head against a door to exacerbate an injury out of spite towards a sibling. I hope that doesn’t make me sound rigid – my goal is always to be the opposite – but I have to stick to that.

Oh. Points well taken. Thanks for the explanation of why the episode and situations with Bart disturb you. I had no idea it was due to something fairly personal to you /but you also having a lower tolerance for such violence and meanness even in an animated series make a lot of sense) so now I really understand your distaste of the episode and why you took what was going on with Bart so harshly. It definitely get almost too realistic at times (I agree), but I don't take it nearly as seriously, though I understand those that do).

I'm so sorry if that comment hurt since hat really wasn't my intention: It was more of an heat of the moment, gut reaction thing I wrote before I logged off (pretty much) and I regretted some of what I wrote afterwards (that part included). I wasn't meaning to infer you have a strict, rigdig way of thinking, but I initially (when making my reply above) sorta got that feeling from your writing of how you feel the characters should ideally be (in regards to how you found Bart & Lisa to be a far cry from how they (usually) were up to that point and how you think they should be (ideally). It was unfair (and I understand you don't want to tell me I'm wrong).

My apologies again, but I still stand by my own views and opinions on the episode itself and you should continue to do so regarding your opinions on it. Again, I wasn't out to insult, I like to discuss the episodes even when opinions differ (such as this one) and now I definitely feel (and know) I went too far with how I worded some things here and there.

P.S. I haven’t yet elaborated on my views regarding DS9 which are far more extensive than it simply deviates from previous Trek, but that’s for another thread and another day.

You don't have to do that if you don't want to (even if I'm still curious to hear more). I've generally understood you well on that topic but if you like you are welcome to elaborate in that one thread.

By the way, I didn't really plan on referencing your opinion on DS9 being hostile to traditional 'Star Trek', but in my heat of the moment response (which I didn't intend to make so long, but became so due to wanting to reply to the stuff you wrot) it reminded me a little with your sayings making the episode ('My Sister, My Sitter') feel like it deeply contradict with how you want the show to be (with none of that really dark, potentially disturbing stuff such as in this episode), hence the comparison.

I hope we can still have discussions and debates since it is never my intent to insult or talk down to others, pick fights or turn to trolling, but to discuss, debate and have a bit of fun talking about the show (good and bad).
 
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I appreciate that, dude, and respect your own opinion on the matter. I took absolutely no offence and we're totally good as far as I'm concerned! ☺️
 
I agree with @Nitsy and @CousinMerl. They both mentioned two of the biggest declines in my opinion, which are the "issues of the day" things (Side note, I noticed they started taking jabs at more things that apparently exist in their universe, like South Park and stuff like that. I always felt that kinda stuff felt *off* for The Simpsons, no matter how many times they did it, it just doesn't feel right for the show). And celebrity stuff for the sake of celebrity stuff (I absolutely hated When You Dish Upon A Star and still do to this day)
 
I remember very clearly watching "Kill the Alligator and Run" when it premiered on UK terrestrial television for the first time and thinking it was terrible.
 
Looking back it's clear for me that starting with season 10 had some imperfect episodes, It did set a new benchmark for episodes, that being said I have fond memories of episodes in season 11 and further. Then I think that starting with season 20 there was another drop in quality which only showed some improvement for me around season 26-27, there were a lot of average episodes during that era but not enough standout, I think there's a lot more good episodes in the most recent seasons to make me have a positive opinion of the season as a whole. I tried to go over the season last night just to jog my memory and see if I could remember the plot to episodes.

edited because I wrote season 13 instead of 11... but then 12 had some standouts as well, as the series went on the standout episodes became rarer and rarer. I think the show is better in these last 5 years than it was around the start of the HD era.
 
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While Season 13 is the worst Season for me, I didn't really notice a decline until around Season 27/Season 28, but I feel like its a relatively slow decline, as I have enjoyed some of the more recent Seasons, mainly Season 32.
 
As a 90's kid who grew up watching this show, I really noticed it in Miracle On Evergreen Terrace. First episode in chronological order I outright disliked. It still felt like the show I knew and loved, but subpar. By season 10, it didn't feel like the same show anymore to me. I distinctly remember seeing Screaming Yellow Honkers when it aired and feeling complete disillusionment with what the show had become, especially all that whacky stuff happening at the zoo and the rhinos running around. It felt blatantly different to what I was accustomed to.
 
As a 90's kid who grew up watching this show, I really noticed it in Miracle On Evergreen Terrace. First episode in chronological order I outright disliked. It still felt like the show I knew and loved, but subpar. By season 10, it didn't feel like the same show anymore to me. I distinctly remember seeing Screaming Yellow Honkers when it aired and feeling complete disillusionment with what the show had become, especially all that whacky stuff happening at the zoo and the rhinos running around. It felt blatantly different to what I was accustomed to.
Miracle On Evergreen Terrace is a guilty pleasure for me as it is one of the funnier episode I have seen. Homer using a make-up shotgun on his wife only to find out that it was set on whore mode is good comedy (at least for me).
 
Miracle On Evergreen Terrace is a guilty pleasure for me as it is one of the funnier episode I have seen. Homer using a make-up shotgun on his wife only to find out that it was set on whore mode is good comedy (at least for me).
That's Wizard Of Evergreen Terrace. Miracle was the Christmas episode. But yeah, I mix up those titles easily, too.
 
That's Wizard Of Evergreen Terrace. Miracle was the Christmas episode. But yeah, I mix up those titles easily, too.
Oh crap, that's awkward. Anyways, I like the episode as well but I don't think it is as funny as the other Season 9 episodes. It felt too pessimistic for my liking and had some awful scenes like with the orphans giving money to Bart.
I'm still glad that there wasn't any Jerkass Bart in this episode, unlike the later seasons.
 
I didn't begin regularly watching the series until around mid-2005 and prior to that I'd seen a few hand full of past episodes in syndication though I recall most of them being post-classic era.

It wasn't until around 2008 that I began to catch up on most of the past episodes up to that point after getting the Season 10 DVD set. It was a mix of watching in syndication and online with one of the first episodes I saw on TV during that time being Marge on the Lam. There wasn't any consistent order to how I watched them but when looking back and knowing what episodes are from which season I would say that the warning signs for the decline began in Season 7 with Home Sweet Homediddly-Dum-Doodily and The Day the Violence Died, and was solidified the following season with My Sister, My Sitter (which I couldn't stand back in 2008 and despise even more the longer people still try to insist that it's a good episode in spite of the reasons that @B-Boy pointed out for why it actually isn't).

The episode in question leaves so much of a black stain that it's enough for me to consider Season 8 to be the worst of the classic era and Season 10 to be an improvement even though that season in my eyes suffers from overexposure due to it being the only one I had the DVD set for prior to 2015.


Aah yes, another episode that I immediately hated back when I first watched it back in 2008 and another horrid stain on the classic era (though still not enough to taint the entire season like My Sister, My Sitter does to Season 8).
Interesting you mentioned Home Sweet Diddly, as I consider a pretty big step down comedy-wise from the previous Mirkin episodes. I'm honestly surprised that it's so well liked. Don't get me wrong, I love Oakley and Weinstein to death, but I feel they slowed down the pacing noticably in crontast to the rapid-fire pacing of Mirkin. If you immediately watch Home Sweet Diddly on a binge right after the previous Mirkin episodes, it is a pretty jarring change of pace. That episode however is meant to be more sweet and heartwarming rather than gut-busting funny.

We would get more of those classic gut-busting funny episodes in the O&W years, like King Sized Homer. Just in a noticably lower ratio than in the previous few seasons.
 
Interesting you mentioned Home Sweet Diddly, as I consider a pretty big step down comedy-wise from the previous Mirkin episodes. I'm honestly surprised that it's so well liked. Don't get me wrong, I love Oakley and Weinstein to death, but I feel they slowed down the pacing noticably in crontast to the rapid-fire pacing of Mirkin. If you immediately watch Home Sweet Diddly on a binge right after the previous Mirkin episodes, it is a pretty jarring change of pace. That episode however is meant to be more sweet and heartwarming rather than gut-busting funny.

We would get more of those classic gut-busting funny episodes in the O&W years, like King Sized Homer. Just in a noticably lower ratio than in the previous few seasons.
Is it me or didn't I see you post this already?
 
@Evil Homer, My issue with Home Sweet Diddly that it's fate for me is how it's one of those episodes like Marge in Chains where it lives and (ultimately) dies on how Idiot Plot heavy it's first act is in order to make the rest of the episode "Work". Except this episode does it much worse with that shitty kind of misunderstanding that makes me hate episodes like Love Thy Trophy from Family Guy for similar reasons.
 
Funny, I enjoyed Screaming Yellow Honkers and Miracle On Evergreen Terrace , I feel no guilt enjoying those. I may have to rewatch them since I don't think I've seen either in more than a decade. A couple of months ago I started rewatching the series from season 2 and hit a bit of a wall in late season 7, Bart on the Road specifically, I enjoy that episode but I think the Lisa side story kinda bored me. I'll admit that Lisa isn't my favorite character but I really enjoyed Lisa the Iconoclast, I think the narrative was stronger since it was the main story.

A few nights ago I went over the modern seasons trying to conjure some feeling over the episodes, there were a lot of mehs and the occasional episode that brought back more memories, I decided to watch Peeping Mom , from season 26. Maybe I'm more cynical but while there were a few scenes I enjoyed a lot of them made me roll my eyes. I remembered the episode vaguely but I groaned at the Auto-correct joke with nelson and kind of felt bummed out when Marge gave up on Bart, there was no gravitas it just felt like a common trope.

I understand the feeling of disillusionment some people get, I would have to really go back in my memories to remember which episode was the first that made me feel disillusioned, The only recent one I remember is The clown stays in the picture, season 30 , I will have to rewatch that one, I think it had to do with some of the retconning they did in this flashback episode.
 
@Evil Homer, My issue with Home Sweet Diddly that it's fate for me is how it's one of those episodes like Marge in Chains where it lives and (ultimately) dies on how Idiot Plot heavy it's first act is in order to make the rest of the episode "Work". Except this episode does it much worse with that shitty kind of misunderstanding that makes me hate episodes like Love Thy Trophy from Family Guy for similar reasons.

I understand if the "Idiot Plot" (or rather misunderstanding/miscommunication, as I don't think it is that much of a good example of an Idiot Plot) of such an episode really can make a difference to some (even being able to break it), but I think that if one isn't bothered by such a thing, the episode is perfectly fine, if not even great (such as I myself think).

Interesting you mentioned Home Sweet Diddly, as I consider a pretty big step down comedy-wise from the previous Mirkin episodes. I'm honestly surprised that it's so well liked. Don't get me wrong, I love Oakley and Weinstein to death, but I feel they slowed down the pacing noticably in crontast to the rapid-fire pacing of Mirkin. If you immediately watch Home Sweet Diddly on a binge right after the previous Mirkin episodes, it is a pretty jarring change of pace. That episode however is meant to be more sweet and heartwarming rather than gut-busting funny.

We would get more of those classic gut-busting funny episodes in the O&W years, like King Sized Homer. Just in a noticably lower ratio than in the previous few seasons.

I honestly don't see any problem with 'Home Sweet Homediddly' not being as rapid-fire funny as the Mirkin episodes. Kinda feels unfair to compare an O&W episode to any of Mirkin's as they had such different approaches to how to do the show & in all honesty, I loved their slower pacing and bigger emphasis on the emotions, drama & heartwarming. It such a great combo, also building on the type of heartfelt material Mirkin started with in season 6 (while season 5 was more focused on wacky humor).

Also, I still found their episodes, especially in season 7, consistently funny (even the episode in question). Their humor differ drastically from Mirkin's and while I get their "drier", more absurd approach isn't to everyone's liking (I can imagine many viewers at the time found 7 to be dull compared to 6), I'm one of those who appreciates their version of the show, mixing clever writing and hilarity with some genuinely great drama & emotions: 'Mother Simpson' is a perfect example, but 'Homediddly' is another one (especially if, again, the misunderstandings due to the unlucky coincidences/happenstances of the first act isn't bothersome, such as when it comes to myself).
 
I enjoyed Screaming Yellow Honkers and Miracle On Evergreen Terrace , I feel no guilt enjoying those. I may have to rewatch them since I don't think I've seen either in more than a decade.
I haven't watched something like the latter or Duffless in 10+ years either, but I know that if I were to try and do so today I still wouldn't like them as much as I did when I first wasted time that I can't ever get back on them back in 2008! Last watched Screaming Yellow Honkers back in 2015 and I remember it being alright.

A couple of months ago I started rewatching the series from season 2 and hit a bit of a wall in late season 7, Bart on the Road specifically, I enjoy that episode but I think the Lisa side story kinda bored me. I'll admit that Lisa isn't my favorite character but I really enjoyed Lisa the Iconoclast, I think the narrative was stronger since it was the main story.
I can relate a little to this as I'm currently rewatching several past seasons as well and I've currently felt a lack of motivation to continue with Season 8. Leaving out My Sister, My Sitter; most of the episodes up until the point where I've currently stopped (Simpsoncalifragilisticexpiala(Annoyed Grunt)cious) are the definition of middle-tier as they don't score any higher than a 2.5 which I would round down to a 2 on a poll.

Though when I got my Season 7 DVD set a few years ago Bart on the Road was the first episode I watched on it as it's always been a highlight of the season for me. Lisa's plot isn't as grand as the main one, but I don't consider it boring nor do I think it takes away from the episode. Her feeling like a kid in that comes across as more endearing when compared to the recent Boyz n the Highlands where she comes off like a self-entitled brat.
 
'Bart On The Road' being a bit of a season 7 speedbump to anyone is interesting (I always found that one, main plot and subplot, to be fairly strong. The latter I never had a problem with as I too felt it was really charming and down to earth), but then again, @Frankbags is not alone of having hit a snag during the latter half of the seventh season in particular:

I recall some years ago when I was rewatching the show (with a friend) via the DVD seasons and said friend wanted to stop near late S7 (where 'Bart On the Road' is present), maybe getting uninterested or bored, which made me kinda disappointed as I've always seen the season as a highlight (maybe the peak), but like I've said previously, Oakley & Weinstein's style isn't to everyone's liking, I can imagine some feel it is a step down (maybe especially when doing a rewatch/binge) & I guess that the latter half of the season isn't as consistently strong as the first.
 
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It's likely that this was due to fatigue on my part. I think it may be due to the contrast between that story vs Bart's road trip story which is a lot more interesting. I don't dislike any episode from the classic era, I tend to not like the Lisa storylines as much as Bart's stories but I still really enjoy episodes like Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington , Lisa The Greek and such classics. I don't know if her characterisation changes around season 7 and up but I'm not the biggest fan of her involvement in Summer of 4.2ft or The Secret War of Lisa Simpson but then I still like Lisa the Simpson and My Sister my Sitter.

I can't remember exactly how I felt about season 9 when it aired. I don't remember having a strong reaction to the episode but looking back at the episodes it's obvious that in my enjoyment of the show that it was starting to decline in quality. I will still watch episodes from that era but I think a lot of what made the simpsons great was lost to try and follow a trend that shows like South Park and Family Guy started. Part of me misses the early 2000s shock jock humor but I am also glad that it's over.
 
I don't doubt that fatigue might have played a part (sorta like what I suspect with my example as well), but a personal preference of plots centered around a certain character rather than another one can obviously be another reason (like you say).

Speaking of Lisa, I actually think you might have a point in that there might have been a change with her characterization and portrayal with the Oakley & Weinstein era (slight, but maybe noticeable), but I didn't really notice or think of it that much and I usually find her involvement in the episodes to still be great (such as 'Summer Of 4 Ft. 2' which relies on her characterization and involvement in the plot. Still remains one of the finest episodes they ever done, much due to how they did her story & conflict there).
 
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@Frankbags & @CousinMerl The only real thing I can point to in terms of Lisa's characterization changing is that Season 7 was when she became a vegetarian which then became permanent for the sake of getting Paul & Linda to guest star in that episode (which unintentionally undermines the message of not forcing ones beliefs onto others). That said, I don't think her character starts becoming a problem until we reach the early double digit seasons.
 
That may be right. Your timeline may be more accurate, Lisa becomes the ultimate buzz kill, they used her to push their beliefs, even if I align with most if not all she got too preachy. A lot of her episodes are socially engaged which is fine but they are a little too on the nose for me sometimes., that being said I loved Lisa's Belly, maybe because the references "hit". On the other side are the transcendent episodes which are fine but like the marriage crisis episodes they usually fall flat for me. I have fond memory of Make Room For Lisa but there's a modern eastern inspired musical episode which I praised for its art but the story left me nonplussed. I can't remember the title at the moment.
 
While 'Lisa The Vegetarian' may have been the catalyst for a more permanent change of Lisa, I still think that is a fantastic & funny episode and doesn't ruin the character nor signal a downturn in quality (I am fine the change of her becoming a vegetarian & it doesn't really affect the show for better nor worse in itself, not even Lisa as a character). As said, the more problematic portrayals of Lisa doesn't really happen until season 10 and on (even though there were signs of it in season 9, such as her childish tantrum in 'Bart Star' where she declined joining the football team since she wasn't the only girl and tried using her anti-meat sentiment as a justification), but I'd more attribute that to the often shoddy writing than Lisa being more vocal about her beliefs itself.
 
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While 'Lisa The Vegetarian' may have been the catalyst for a more permanent change of Lisa, I still think that is a fantastic & funny episode and doesn't ruin the character nor signal a downturn in quality (I am fine the change of her becoming a vegetarian & it doesn't really affect the show for better nor worse in itself, not even Lisa as a character). As said, the more problematic portrayals of Lisa doesn't really happen until season 10 and on (even though there were signs of it in season 9, such as her childish tantrum in 'Bart Star' where she declined joining the football team since she wasn't the only girl and tried using her anti-meat sentiment as a justification), but I'd more attribute that to the often shoddy writing than Lisa being more vocal about her beliefs itself.
Lisa's childish tantrum in "Bart Star" is one of the two main reasons why the episode isn't a 10 for me anymore. I found Lisa to be quite selfish and egotistical in the episode.
 
That whole scene is hilarious though. Broader characterization can sometimes be excused if the humor is strong.
Lisa becoming a vegetarian was a natural step for her character. I always say that it's surprising it didn't happen even earlier, due to being the outspoken animal lover in the family.
 
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