Very unpopular opinions.

It's even worse in the subplot of Singin' In The Lane, where Bart makes the bizarre choice to humiliate himself in front of rich guys for the sake of money. What the hell happened to doing something normal to make money, such as helping out in Mrs. Glick's garden?
 
It's even worse in the subplot of Singin' In The Lane, where Bart makes the bizarre choice to humiliate himself in front of rich guys for the sake of money. What the hell happened to doing something normal to make money, such as helping out in Mrs. Glick's garden?

the Singin' In The Lane subplot is a mixed bag for me. On one hand, Bart's fine with being a punching bag, which is quite common in modern Simpsons. On the other hand, it leads to some solid comedy and I enjoyed it well enough.
 
I thought Bart's portrayal in 'Bart Vs. Itchy & Scratchy' was pretty good, in fact. He stood up for himself and his beliefs, even when he got crap for that (and he couldn't care less that the girls used him as he had a truly good time and that's what counted. Plus he's El Barto after all). I also really liked how he handled Lisa when she started to rag on him for being in the group without truly being into their cause. I liked him here.

I would say that the episode did fall a little short in regards to the Bossy Riot girls (whom were true straw feminist stereotypes). They were essentially the villains (more so than the BRA group, that was more of a pathetic nuisance) yet the episode forgot to give them some sort of comeuppance or at least an acknowledgement that they did wrong (which they deserved, being in the wrong too due with their hooliganism and misandry. It sort of felt like they used their so-called feminism as a cover for their deeds, being thick-headed tweens/teens who doesn't understand true feminism, which is about equality), but to me that was just a minor annoyance.

And the subplot of 'Singin' In The Lane' was crap. Bart was way out of character, willingly sucking up to the bad guys, humiliating himself by being their helper monkey and bullying target and being satisfied with it. That is not Bart at all. Probably one of the worst subplots in recent years.
 
I thought Bart's portrayal in 'Bart Vs. Itchy & Scratchy' was pretty good, in fact. He stood up for himself and his beliefs, even when he got crap for that (and he couldn't care less that the girls used him as he had a truly good time and that's what counted. Plus he's El Barto after all). I also really liked how he handled Lisa when she started to rag on him for being in the group without truly being into their cause. I liked him here.

I would say that the episode did fall a little short in regards to the Bossy Riot girls (whom were true straw feminist stereotypes). They were essentially the villains (more so than the BRA group, that was more of a pathetic nuisance) yet the episode forgot to give them some sort of comeuppance or at least an acknowledgement that they did wrong (which they deserved, being in the wrong too due with their hooliganism and misandry. It sort of felt like they used their so-called feminism as a cover for their deeds, being thick-headed tweens/teens who doesn't understand true feminism, which is about equality), but to me that was just a minor annoyance.

And the subplot of 'Singin' In The Lane' was crap. Bart was way out of character, willingly sucking up to the bad guys, humiliating himself by being their helper monkey and bullying target and being satisfied with it. That is not Bart at all. Probably one of the worst subplots in recent years.

I mean BR still treated him like dog shit and he just had a dumb smile on his face as they did it, like every Bart episode in the past 5 years, it also turns into a Lisa episode for no reason. This show seems dead set on making me feel bad about being a guy rather than preaching actual feminist ideas.
 
[MENTION=87149]The Abominable Dr. Lenny[/MENTION], As far as I can see the episode wasn't out to preach anything (or to make guys feel bad, nor condone misandry). It felt like it meant to satirize gender wars and sexism, and whether or not it was successful with that it is up to one self to decide (I think they did a fairly decent job with that in the end).

And regarding Bart, saying he was treated that badly and just smiled about it is a gross exaggeration. He liked the trio's style of pranking and vandalizing, hung out with them and participated in their mischief as had a good time doing that (being the prankster bad boy he is), and in the end not regretting it even though they never cared about him (or pretended they didn't? Just a theory). He also learnt something as well in the end. If this is supposed to be a bad portrayal of modern Bart, then there's way worse examples.

(And by the way, please don't quote the entirety posts if you're only replying to part them (it's really unnecessary and it can easily lead clog up a page). Just quote the relevant part of it in the reply or better yet, just an username mention if it's the post directly above yours).
 
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[MENTION=17229]CousinMerl[/MENTION] At the end they said they used him and he's not the least bit upset. They do try to play both sides a bit, but it isn't equal. It's not a satire of gender wars. It's not a satire at all. Like other Simpsons episodes, it makes a few jokes against BR to make it look like a satire of gender wars, but that's not the idea the episode conveys.
 
Sorry, was at work when I did that reply. Bart vs Itchy And Scratchy Makes Lisa unlikeable as an feminist throughout, and blames all men as the evil guys, when in fact, Not all of them are. But the episode is still ok.
 
Bart vs. Itchy and Scratchy must be the most interesting episode to discuss. I am gonna try to resume how I understood this.

First of all, I don't think the satire is supposed to be equal. Machismo and misogyny mean being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole. Radical Feminism protests with harmful methods trying to conquest their rights. There is a huge margin between machismo and radfem to claim the satire to be equal. Now, it's true that Carmen, Erica, and Piper exceed the limit with Bart and they are quite close to the misandry. But that represents their individual personalities, no the collective.

That takes us to the second point: the ending. The fact that Lisa joins Bossy Riot doesn't mean she is going to be a jerk with men or anything like that. It means that she is going to fight for what she thinks is appropriate, and I think that's just a powerful message that people misunderstood. Lisa has said it before: "We need fearless female activists to fight back against misogyny and man-spreading". That's what the end represents. And I find it properly and accurate.

And the third aspect to discuss is Bart. I think his characterization was, not sure if great, but really good for sure. He cares about pranks, which is really in place, he is more mature than the rest of the boys in Springfield, he stops the girls when they touch something he cares about. Maybe a few scenes of the mistreatment the girls make on him dragged on a tad bit but it's not a big problem for me, especially because Bart just ignores them and he is there for the pranks, and later for bothering Lisa.

I don't know, I think all the satires and characterizations landed and I find this episode is really well-written and well-intentioned.
 
Bart vs. Itchy and Scratchy must be the most interesting episode to discuss. I am gonna try to resume how I understood this.

First of all, I don't think the satire is supposed to be equal. Machismo and misogyny mean being an asshole just for the sake of being an asshole. Radical Feminism protests with harmful methods trying to conquest their rights. There is a huge margin between machismo and radfem to claim the satire to be equal. Now, it's true that Carmen, Erica, and Piper exceed the limit with Bart and they are quite close to the misandry. But that represents their individual personalities, no the collective.

That takes us to the second point: the ending. The fact that Lisa joins Bossy Riot doesn't mean she is going to be a jerk with men or anything like that. It means that she is going to fight for what she thinks is appropriate, and I think that's just a powerful message that people misunderstood. Lisa has said it before: "We need fearless female activists to fight back against misogyny and man-spreading". That's what the end represents. And I find it properly and accurate.

And the third aspect to discuss is Bart. I think his characterization was, not sure if great, but really good for sure. He cares about pranks, which is really in place, he is more mature than the rest of the boys in Springfield, he stops the girls when they touch something he cares about. Maybe a few scenes of the mistreatment the girls make on him dragged on a tad bit but it's not a big problem for me, especially because Bart just ignores them and he is there for the pranks, and later for bothering Lisa.

I don't know, I think all the satires and characterizations landed and I find this episode is really well-written and well-intentioned.

The satire definitely isn't even-handed. I don't know what the desired effect was, but it isn't, so I'll agree with that. First off, Lisa is terrible here. She seems to genuinely hate her brother in some episodes and this isn't an exception. She goes out of her way to humiliate him and any time something goes right in his life she ruins it. She's just terrible. She's angry at Bart, but never tries to reason with him. BR are terrible as well, to the extent that Milhouse's band of bigots is actually easier to like. These girls treat Bart like dog shit, but he stays with them, presumably because he likes the pranks. Fair enough. It's the last portion of this episode where things go awry. Lisa joins Bossy Riot despite their obvious bigotry and the fact that they behave in a way she never would. They're essentially bigoted terrorists and Lisa joins them. After they basically tell Bart that he's worthless and that they never liked him, he's totally fine with it and happy for Lisa. This is more of Bart being a punching bag/door mat, and it's just really unfortunate.
 
The satire definitely isn't even-handed. I don't know what the desired effect was, but it isn't, so I'll agree with that. First off, Lisa is terrible here. She seems to genuinely hate her brother in some episodes and this isn't an exception. She goes out of her way to humiliate him and any time something goes right in his life she ruins it. She's just terrible. She's angry at Bart, but never tries to reason with him. BR are terrible as well, to the extent that Milhouse's band of bigots is actually easier to like. These girls treat Bart like dog shit, but he stays with them, presumably because he likes the pranks. Fair enough. It's the last portion of this episode where things go awry. Lisa joins Bossy Riot despite their obvious bigotry and the fact that they behave in a way she never would. They're essentially bigoted terrorists and Lisa joins them. After they basically tell Bart that he's worthless and that they never liked him, he's totally fine with it and happy for Lisa. This is more of Bart being a punching bag/door mat, and it's just really unfortunate.
The treatment of Lisa towards Bart is over-dimensioned and fairly exaggerated. In this episode in particular and in the series as a whole. There are instances where she mistreats him, I am not going to deny that. But it's not the general rule, and it's not what happened in Bart vs. Itchy & Scratchy. The reasoning is simple: imagine you have ideals of whatever, and your brother acts like a child under-estimating your thoughts and without taking it seriously. That's not okay, and the disavowal of Lisa is understandable. Also, what she makes is exactly what you say she didn't: trying to reason with him. She tries to argue him it's not his battle and it's not something he should be involved.

Regarding the ending, there are countless samples of Lisa going to marches and being actively involved in protests and revolts. Lisa the Tree-Hugger, The Dad Who Knew Too Little, and Apocalypse Cow come to mind right now. It's not as if this ending was out-of-character. The exact opposite. Well, it might be if you tag them as: "terrorism". I think Bossy Riots is completely unrelated to terrorism. They fight for their rights, not for political reasons, they try to make people aware, not to kill innocents. But whatever, that's a deeper discussion I don't want to go in.
 
The treatment of Lisa towards Bart is over-dimensioned and fairly exaggerated. In this episode in particular and in the series as a whole. There are instances where she mistreats him, I am not going to deny that. But it's not the general rule, and it's not what happened in Bart vs. Itchy & Scratchy. The reasoning is simple: imagine you have ideals of whatever, and your brother acts like a child under-estimating your thoughts and without taking it seriously. That's not okay, and the disavowal of Lisa is understandable. Also, what she makes is exactly what you say she didn't: trying to reason with him. She tries to argue him it's not his battle and it's not something he should be involved.

Regarding the ending, there are countless samples of Lisa going to marches and being actively involved in protests and revolts. Lisa the Tree-Hugger, The Dad Who Knew Too Little, and Apocalypse Cow come to mind right now. It's not as if this ending was out-of-character. The exact opposite. Well, it might be if you tag them as: "terrorism". I think Bossy Riots is completely unrelated to terrorism. They fight for their rights, not for political reasons, they try to make people aware, not to kill innocents. But whatever, that's a deeper discussion I don't want to go in.

I mean, she does it a lot. She called him a scab on societies knee just last season. My point wasn't that she hadn't done protests it was that their protests were way more leaning towards vandalism and they were doing it for bigoted reasons. Lisa not trying to reason with Bart was more of a general thing throughout the episode. She immediately posts the video without any regard for Bart. "Terrorist: a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." They were certainly using intimidation and violence (spraying glitter on their tears, so on). So maybe they're not quite terrorists, but it's violent protests for unfounded reasons, so pick your battles.
 
It's mostly in the Al Jean Age. I don't have any problems whatsoever with them in Scully or the golden age.

For Todd; Todd, Todd, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me made him annoying,
For Rod, he's slighty better, but is still annoying.

And after a while, their "Yay! (insert thing Flanders said)" line gets repetitive.
 
It's mostly in the Al Jean Age. I don't have any problems whatsoever with them in Scully or the golden age.

For Todd; Todd, Todd, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me made him annoying,
For Rod, he's slighty better, but is still annoying.

And after a while, their "Yay! (insert thing Flanders said)" line gets repetitive.

Todd, Todd is a good episode and added more layers to his character. Never minded their catchphrase thing.
 
Happy to see [MENTION=75686]Szyslak100[/MENTION] chime in on 'Bart Vs. Itchy & Scratchy' and I cannot do less than agree with what he added when going in deeper on the episode, which is indeed interesting to discuss (one of the most interesting of the HD era episodes, I'd say).

It genuinely had the right idea to tackle these issues it did head on, even though it was very black & white and wasn't that nuanced as said, and most of it's aspects I really felt they generally handled well (the spoofing on Mens Rights Activists, Bart's portrayal, the conflict with Lisa and how it ended & even the Bossy Riot gang with their straw feminism, the latter of which I felt tapped into the worse stereotypes of feminism that internet trolls loves to rag on and all that, but they served their purpose in the story well).

I still think the latter got off lightly (and didn't really learn anything) as they felt not much more than destructive hoodlums using the idea of feminism as a cover (and they were made too unlikeable even in comparison with the BRA gang, which I don't think was the intent) and I would have liked to be able to like them, but still, they were fighting for a good cause at the bottom of things (despite really not understanding the concept of true feminism, which I think was intentional with the trio being young teens).
 
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Todd, Todd had the most potential out of any episode, but it was really squandered. Bottom third of the season, probably.
 
I still believe Bart vs. Itchy and Scratchy did a pretty good job with its satire. It poked fun at every side and how excessive each one can be (without saying, as for the feminism side, that it's the case for all the feminists). And Bart is very well-handled here, I agree. In fact, it's pretty great to see him saying out loud the moral about boys and girls while Lisa was saying to him earlier that, basically because he's "not a girl", he can't understand feminism.

I also still believe Todd, Todd, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me is more a big missed opportunity than a downright terrible episode. Such a waste of potential.
 
I might as well admit it; in modern episodes, Lisa is actually one of the few characters I still enjoy. I know a lot of people consider her modern incarnation to be just as derailed and unlikable as someone like modern Homer, but personally I still have affinity for her. I don't find her annoying despite her being so vocal about her opinions. I think it has to do with the fact that even when she is being dogmatic, her passion always seem to come from a place of wanting to make the world a better place. I also think that part of the reason why I haven't grown to be as disapointed with Lisa as with someone like Homer or Bart is this; a large part of the appeal of Homer and Bart was that they were funny. Modern Simpsons however usually can't tell a decent joke to save their lives, meaning that characters whose ability to be funny were an enormous part of their original appeal really suffer. Lisa however was honestly, for the most part, never a super comedic character. She was likable for other reasons. This means that as the show lost it's ability to be funny, Lisa wasn't hit as hard as many other characters.

Oh and finally; I think she's just plain cute. Whether we're talking her classic or modern self, her personality, voice and design has always been quite adorable to me. For that same reason I will also always like Maggie.
 
I might as well admit it; in modern episodes, Lisa is actually one of the few characters I still enjoy. I know a lot of people consider her modern incarnation to be just as derailed and unlikable as someone like modern Homer, but personally I still have affinity for her. I don't find her annoying despite her being so vocal about her opinions. I think it has to do with the fact that even when she is being dogmatic, her passion always seem to come from a place of wanting to make the world a better place. I also think that part of the reason why I haven't grown to be as disapointed with Lisa as with someone like Homer or Bart is this; a large part of the appeal of Homer and Bart was that they were funny. Modern Simpsons however usually can't tell a decent joke to save their lives, meaning that characters whose ability to be funny were an enormous part of their original appeal really suffer. Lisa however was honestly, for the most part, never a super comedic character. She was likable for other reasons. This means that as the show lost it's ability to be funny, Lisa wasn't hit as hard as many other characters.

Oh and finally; I think she's just plain cute. Whether we're talking her classic or modern self, her personality, voice and design has always been quite adorable to me. For that same reason I will also always like Maggie.

Both Lisa and Marge are also the voice of reason among the craziness. To me, The Simpsons often feels like a "straight man act," and you can't do the act with the funny guy alone; you need the straight man to relate with the audience just how absurd the situation is.

I also really just genuinely enjoy it whenever Lisa gets intellectual about a subject, even when I don't fully comprehend what she's saying. I enjoy prose a lot.

I also think that I could sympathize with a lot of Lisa's woes. Aside from being a female, she's a vocal female with assertive ideas about how to make the world better. For an eight year old, it's easy for her to get ignored or reprimanded even. In Family Guy, she would be Meg easily if Homer was actually abusive to his family. I also get the feeling that Lisa feels out of place among her peers specifically because of her intellect. Bart couldn't care less because he's a rebel, but Lisa cares too much, me thinks.
 
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Had to rewrite this, because of the restore feature deleting what I wrote forever.

Pros about Modern Lisa:
1: She still sounds the same as she did back in 1992
2: The last 2 episodes portrayed Lisa well

Cons:
1: More depressed than ever
2: Is written to be better than Bart, causing Bart to be neglected
3: Has appeared in way too many rubbish modern era episodes as the main character
4: has been more annoying

Out of all things, this Lisa hate is mainly because of the dodgy writing in Modern Simpsons.
 
Both Lisa and Marge are also the voice of reason among the craziness. To me, The Simpsons often feels like a "straight man act," and you can't do the act with the funny guy alone; you need the straight man to relate with the audience just how absurd the situation is.

I also really just genuinely enjoy it whenever Lisa gets intellectual about a subject, even when I don't fully comprehend what she's saying. I enjoy prose a lot.

I also think that I could sympathize with a lot of Lisa's woes. Aside from being a female, she's a vocal female with assertive ideas about how to make the world better. For an eight year old, it's easy for her to get ignored or reprimanded even. In Family Guy, she would be Meg easily if Homer was actually abusive to his family. I also get the feeling that Lisa feels out of place among her peers specifically because of her intellect. Bart couldn't care less because he's a rebel, but Lisa cares too much, me thinks.

Lisa was one of my favorite characters in the classic era because I could sympathize with her feelings and position in life. As the series progresses she becomes incredibly egotistical and completely loathes her family. Like virtually all characters, she was much better last season than the rest of the HD seasons.
 
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