Rate and Review: Lisa the Iconoclast

R+R LTI


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He was lying to the cops in a throwaway moment. And it was really funny, too. Not even close to the same thing.
 
Don't really agree with your idea that lying is always wrong. True, it usually it is, but sometimes, for example, in this episode, it can be OK. It all depends on why you are lying and if it is for good reasons.
 
You're not going to get through to me, okay guys? You can use all the logic you want, and I get your points, but my mind simply doesn't accept lying to ever be okay. I can't help it. There are a some other people here with Asperger's, and I'd like to know their opinion on the ending and if the lying bothers them as well.
Well I'm probably one of the most outspoken defenders of this episode, it's probably about my 6th favourite episode, and I basically agree with Elliot. I don't have a moral problem with lying anyway in certain situations. I mean, you played Survivor with me. I lied to basically everyone and I had fun doing it. I'm not sure what Asperger's syndrome has to do with it either. Something I've learned from my posting here is that people with Asperger's syndrome can be very different; for example, you've mentioned a few times that you are not good at math and you like acting. On the other hand, I'm great at math and I struggle with even controlling my tone of voice (there is no way in hell I could ever act, not to mention the fact that there is nothing artistic about me and I hate attention). However, I don't hold it against you that you hate this episode, because your opinion on some Simpsons episode doesn't affect me in the slightest and it would be a petty thing to concern myself with. Still have no idea how you got that "best taste" award though.

I can understand why you might hate seperate vocations, Panther because that ending is rather uncomfortable from a moral standpoint (though I love that too)
How is Separate Vocations significantly different? If this were an after-school special, Lisa would face consequences for her actions, but she doesn't because what happens reflects what could happen in real life. It's exactly as subversive.
 
You're not going to get through to me, okay guys? You can use all the logic you want, and I get your points, but my mind simply doesn't accept lying to ever be okay. I can't help it. There are a some other people here with Asperger's, and I'd like to know their opinion on the ending and if the lying bothers them as well.

I did say this before, but I love the ending to Lisa the Iconoclast because there is so much build up to it. It's like being told a secret that not a lot of people know and when the ending happens that point still stands even though tons of people in the real world know about this. Also I know this isn't the case for you, but this episode really improved for me on re-watch as I was more invested in the story than I was before.

The reason I don't like the ending in Separate Vocations is because there was not a lot of build up to it, it did not feel earned and Lisa wasn't likeable enough for the ending to work on an emotional standpoint. The episode probably would've been below-average for season 3 standards anyways, but the ending is what kind of ruins the episode for me.
 
How is Separate Vocations significantly different? If this were an after-school special, Lisa would face consequences for her actions, but she doesn't because what happens reflects what could happen in real life. It's exactly as subversive.

Well, yes, I do agree. And I did say I do like it, it's another Simpsons being Simpsons moment. However I feel because it's all weighed in on two people and the simple fact that Bart does get punished and not everybody is exactly happy in this situation, I do see how this could leave a bitter taste in someone's mouth, even if it is a similar situation to Iconoclast. The difference I see with Iconoclast is that the episode ends with everybody happy, and they show that sometimes the wrong thing to do is the right thing. With Vocations, no matter what they did, either Bart or Lisa would have been punished. The episode didn't really have a moral to it. Bad things just happened, and it was a shame - but that's life right?

Whilst I like the ending, I can understand why Panther may not enjoy it.
 
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But the ending isn't even solely about the moral implications behind lying. You have to consider Lisa's situation here - there's a sniper aimed at her, and she knows (from others' reactions to her claim earlier in the episode) that exposing Jebediah as a fraud would likely incite riots among the people of Springfield. If you look at it from that perspective, Lisa lied about Jebediah to save herself, her town, and her family, even if doing so was morally wrong.

Also this is kinda unrelated but I watched this a couple of weeks ago, and the second act break when the casket is opened is the greatest act break of the series.
 
so I guess the whole board has come to the conclusion that iconoclast has a great ending and panther disagrees

not much changes around these parts
 
guys he already said he refused to listen to our logic so lets try some non logic

97% of people who hate lying have a online name starting with F
don't be a stereotype
 
Just re-visited this episode and I have to say I really liked the ending - despite the controversy that followed. Yes, Lisa didn't tell the truth but she also kept the spirit and town pride going rather than ruining it. Could have done with a little bit more fresh humour but the story is all there.

4/5
 
Yea, I really enjoyed the story telling and the progression of it. It wasn't as light hearted and was lacking a lot of funny moments, but still a great episode imo. 4/5
 
Great episode. Humor wise, it was really funny, and it had some touching moments with Homer and Lisa. It's not top tier, and it's probably on the lower end of S7, (which speaks more about how great S7 is, rather than the quality of this episode). I have no problem with the ending.
B+
 
Could've so easily, easily been one of my Top 3 episodes for The Simpsons' regarding Season 7 - yet alas, by the last minute or so, we are tainted by the most disgraceful ending of the series at this point.

Lisa the Iconoclast is a great episode with another excellent theme and concept, no doubt about it. As a history junkie myself, I enjoyed learning about the fictitious Jebediah Springfield and his actual identity. Lisa, known for always being the voice of reason of the Simpson family, manages to excel as an authority figure... but only to an extent. To further understand why, I would advise you to keep reading further.

The plot of Lisa the Iconoclast is rather an intriguing one: When the Springfield Elementary School children were assigned to write an essay about Jebediah Springfield, Lisa accidentally finds out that Jebediah in fact as an impostor - a pirate known as Hans Sprungfield whose main intention was to assassinate George Washington. With now Lisa realizing the truth, it is up to her to convince and reveal the truth to everyone about Jebediah. But unfortunately, for poor Lisa, things immediately go south: She receives an "F" for her essay, she & her father can't enter the historical society [for 3 months] and Lisa even gets shunned by her own mother. Luckily for her, there is always Homer to be at her side.

Homer & Lisa episodes have always been known for being a success, and Iconoclast continues that trend. Homer is a father who has remained loyal towards Lisa through the thick & thin, and they both tried to stretch the truth to the most possible limits, even though it ended up backfiring for them and having them lose respect from some of the Springfield citizens.

However, for all of intents and purposes, Iconoclast is an episode with a twist within a twist, subversion within a subversion. The plot thickens even further when Hurlbut was the person who stole the silver tongue so he could hide the secret about Springfield knowing a criminal in fact was the founder of Springfield. But unfortunately, this is now where for such great setups, it all ends up falling apart in the very last 2 minutes of the episode. Beware, I am going a bit overboard here, but I will be explaining why.

When Lisa and Hurlbut rush on over to the stage for Lisa's primary moment to reveal the true intentions of Jebediah Springfield - instead of Lisa being honest and brave as she always has been, instead what happens is that Lisa completely decides to lie to Springfield by telling that Jebediah was great. I'm sorry, but... what the actual fuck. How did anyone even think such an ending here would work with Lisa getting away by being an ostentatious liar!? It derails everything what made the plot of the episode and the characterizations of Lisa, Homer & Hurlbut so significant. Given Lisa's feminist nature, one would have expected her to take the risk and face the music no matter how big the risk was. If anything, I would feel guilt for not having done it even if it meant keeping the citizens happy. I felt so angry how there was so much going into this episode just for us to be disgraced by such a callous ending. It's not cromulent, it's vapid.

In the end, was there ever an actual lesson learned in Lisa the Iconoclast? Unfortunately, not even this time. What instead happens is we get slapped in the face after 20 minutes have passed by thinking "Lying yourself to get out of trouble is good". Wrong. Lying is not the answer. It never is. Especially if you're an 8-year-old girl. Why did Bill Oakley & Josh Weinstein think this would end up being a good idea?

I get why some people have a dislike towards this episode. I get why Panther has a strong hatred towards this one especially, and I'm not implying that I disagree with him. It's a bummer how an episode that had a great concept and great uses of Homer, Lisa, Hurlbut and Jebediah got shat on so quickly in the last few minutes. If anything, just watch this episode until the 20-minute mark and then turn it off.

6/10
 
One of the best Lisa episode. Maybe not my favorite from season 7 but top 5 probably.

I am completely fine with the ending as well, I think it shows that Lisa understands that sometimes a story that brings people together is more important than the truth. I understand that in the current social climate, what with people tearing down statues that people don't want to put "bad" people on a pedestal. I think the mythos of Jebediah is more useful than the truth of Hans Sprungfeld
 
This episode has such great characterization of Lisa, as well as a story that I definitely understand with my knowledge because of my father. The lesson definitely showed something, like, for example, if you knew something of a secret, no one would understand nor believe in you if you do something that would reveal to them. Also, the writing was mostly fantastic with its own effort and quality. The twists were also really well done yet. My only criticism was the ending, which I found the writing on Lisa's speech not as good, but otherwise, the rest of the episode was just magnificent!

Overall, this episode is such a classic, and I like it much better than "The Telltale Head". A
 
This is certainly an interesting episode, and one I always feel mixed about. While after this rewatch, I enjoy it a lot more (there's a lot of great jokes in the episode), the ending is the main downside to this episode for me, also, Homer was adorable in this episode.

However, when it comes to the story and how it ends, I feel mixed, while I can see where the writers were coming from, I do wish Lisa had told the truth about Jebediah Springfield/Hans Sprungfeld.
 
This episode is really great. I feel a bit mixed about the ending, but it does not undo the previous 20 minutes of consistent hilarity and thoughtfulness. Homer and Lisa are super cute in this one. One of my favorites from the show.
 
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