Marvel Cinematic Universe

Resurrecting this thread since there's been a lot of new MCU material this year.

So any of you seen those Marvel shows on Disney+? Your opinions?

I did quite like 'Wandavision' (it had a fresh and new creative approach, despite it getting a little generic of sorts toward the end with the CGI-laden last battle but very good even so), 'Falcon And The Winter Soldier' was a decent thriller story (not as interesting or with as good writing and it did feel like some things had been cut & changed during production, such as regarding the villains and their motivations, but still good) & 'Loki' was a lot of fun and on par with 'WW' if not better in some ways (with crazy sci-fi creativity and many enjoyable new characters).

I think I'd rank them Loki > WW > TFATWS.
 
I find it kinda amusing of how the spoiler culture stuff for the new 'Spider-Man No Way Home' has gotten so bad that Reddit Movies has posted this stickied note telling everyone to stay off of all subreddits until you've seen it. With how big this movie is, I am surprised there hasn't been one big anti-spoiler policy movement online like how it was for 'Infinity War' & 'Endgame'.

This also makes me think back to 'Bart The Bad Guy' and well, its satire still holds up like a charm (and I think it will as long as big popular movie franchises will be around). Kind of funny with how many said it would age poorly in no time.
 
Opens up iMDB... yep, Marvel fans just spamming a bunch of 10s on No Way Home. Why am I not surprised...
 
Not surprised. I bet there's also the quite opposite with a large chunk of people spamming 1/10s like how it usually is with all the incessant review bombing and whatnot that IMDB is known for. I still really miss those entertaining message boards, though.
 
So I saw 'Spider-Man: No Way Home' the other night and without doing any spoilers, it was surprisingly enjoyable, best of the 'Home' trilogy. It had an interesting story and did manage to be very well balanced and nicely paced, plus it did address the complaints directed at the modern MCU Spider-Man movies and it even ended up feeling like almost sort of a reboot for Spider-Man himself (all immediately brings my thoughts to the brief discussion I had with @B-Boy in the unpopular movie opinons thread just recently) so I do think they seem to be heading in the right direction with Tom Holland's interpretion of the character
 
To be fair, 'The Spectacular Spider-Man' was a pretty great cartoon (still too bad it got cancelled so soon).

Anyhow, regarding something else, I wonder why 'Infinity War' & 'Endgame' are listed among the 1001 Movies You Must See Before You Die'. It makes no sense as they don't feel like essentials. I can understand the likes 'Guardians Of The Galaxy' and 'Black Panther' being on there (as they work as standalones) but the abeformentioned two feel kinda useless if one hasn't been following the franchise from its start (and newcomers would be confused going into these, having no connection to previous installments).

I haven't been able to read the description for the two in the latest editions of the book (for any justification) but they do feel like weird additions (aside from their status as huge, hugely popular movies, despite being essentially a two-part season finale).
 
Why is Black Panther a good movie? I don't get it. The Guardians Of The Galaxy was kinda good, the Daredevil was an absolute masterpiece. I will agree with Scorsese on the franchise in general.
 
So I’ve seen Multiverse of Madness twice now and strongly dislike it. I suspect it would rank near the bottom of the 28 MCU films produced thus far, hovering somewhere in the vicinity of Iron Man 3. Conversely, the first Doctor Strange would rank amongst my favourites (possibly even top 5) so that’s a massive discrepancy. While I enjoyed most of the visual and tonal elements, the character work was largely piss poor across the board.

The worst transgressions revolve around Wanda whose corruption/possession by the Darkhold strips her of agency. To what extent are her actions influenced or distorted by it and how much of her original self is still conscious or in control? What’s ultimately driving her? I have no idea and that lack of clarity interferes with my ability to connect or sympathise with her. Worse, the film reduces her to little more than a hysterical mother which is genuinely, offensively sexist. Now, I don’t have an issue with Wanda wanting to be a mother or even the idea of her doing some questionable things to regain the children she lost after Westview, but there’s a lot more to her character than that.

Wanda’s life is one of recurring loss and grief including the deaths of her parents, her brother, and Vision. This film almost completely ignores these people and events that have been important to her. Why does she express zero interest in seeking out alternate versions of Pietro or Vision? I mean, she only created her boys (and became aware of their existence in the multiverse) very recently; I don’t doubt she loved them, but the way they override every single other concern at the expense of everyone and everything else she’s ever known doesn’t work for me. It’s not adequately explained or justified and it’s also incongruent with where we left the character at the end of WandaVision.

That show was a fantastic examination of grief and coming to terms with loss. Wanda inadvertently used her powers to create a fake reality – a manifestation of her deep sorrow and anguish – in which Vision was alive and they had a family. She maintained that illusion even if it meant enslaving other people to do so. It was selfish and reprehensible, but it was human and she ultimately chose to do the right thing. She defeated Agatha, freed her captives, and said goodbye to her family. She let go of her trauma, putting the past behind her and seeking out a life of quiet solitude.

This film completely disregards that arc, repeating many of the same beats with none of the nuance or understanding. She wilfully murders dozens of people in her single-minded pursuit which is simply unforgivable and irredeemable. Yet people root for her and we’re expected to sympathise with her? We’re supposed to walk away from the movie telling ourselves (again) that she did the right thing in the end, whitewashing her actions? I think not. The damage this film does to Wanda is tantamount to character assassination and I dare say it’s the worst portrayal of a female in MCU history.

The character issues with Multiverse of Madness extend beyond Wanda as well. America Chavez is a decent enough addition, but her characterization is extremely thin and she spends most of the film playing little more than a damsel in distress and a glorified MacGuffin. Strange himself also suffers – far too much time is spent on his trite relationship with Christine, overshadowing more interesting threads (including his irresponsibility and his pathological need to fix everything himself). I like how Strange decides to yield some control and be more hands-off at the end when he encourages Chavez, but the significance of that moment is lost in the surrounding cacophony.

This ties in with yet another disappointing development – the use of Mordo (or lack thereof). The first Doctor Strange played around with the idea that Strange was messing around with power that no one could (or should) control (at least not for long) and that the use of it would have dire consequences – “the bill comes due always” remember? I expected the sequel to follow up on that (especially in light of Strange’s rather cavalier actions in No Way Home), but it’s largely glossed over. Mordo is relegated to less than 10 minutes of screen-time in an alternate universe and we get some vague references to a conflict that seems to have happened off-screen. It’s extremely disappointing and it means there’s little cohesion between the first and second films (quite unlike, say, First Avenger and Winter Soldier).

Then there’s the use of the Illuminati. I got caught up in the excitement of their appearance and the gruesome audacity of their deaths the first time around, but the whole thing felt kind of cynical afterwards. What was the point except to reveal their arrogance and illicit a visceral reaction in the audience? I feel similarly about the multiverse stuff in general – there’s a token effort to explore different realities, timelines, and variants but it’s all very shallow and fleeting. Once the film ends, I’m not entirely sure what’s been accomplished or how the story has moved things forward. How has things changed? What are the lasting ramifications of this foray into a multiverse whose walls are increasingly eroding and destabilising? This movie is just a bunch of tantalising hints that don't really lead anywhere, but keep you hooked in the hope that something substantial will eventuate.

I dunno, maybe Multiverse of Madness will improve retroactively (like Age of Ultron) as the ongoing multiverse arc plays out more. As it stands, I find it quite messy and redundant. It’s not as offensively dumb as Iron Man 3, but it’s equally as (if not more) frustrating. It sounds like the movie went through a troubled production (based on interviews with Raimi about test screenings and extensive eleventh-hour reshoots) and it certainly shows.

Ah well. Marvel has had a pretty good run in recent years. We were bound to get a flop eventually. I just hope it's an aberration rather than the start of a pattern.
 
Last edited:
@B-Boy, So bad you saw it twice? Not saying it is wrong at all to rewatch a movie you hate, but it just strikes me as a little odd (as I wouldnt spend money or time to see a movie I disliked that much twice).

Anyhow, I haven't seen the movie yet and I suspect I will wait until it's up on Disney+ sometime next month. As interesting and entertaining as it seems (flaws and all), it just doesn't feel worthy of a trip to the local theater. I have gone through most of your writeup on 'Multiverse' (not really caring for spoilers this time) and it all the more makes me wanna wait for that streaming premiere.

Still I wouldn't attribute this to being the first flop as it seems that the franchise has struggled and stumbled a lot after 'Endgame' and the Covid-19 pandemic hiatus, such as with how 'Black Widow' was met with kind of a "meh, forgettable" response and 'Eternals' fell flat to critics and most fans (I remain to have seen either), though 'No Way Home' seemed like an outlier, but I can see how you find 'Multiverse' to be the worst one of the new phase thus far (it really do seem like a bit of a mess overall).

Now I am curious, what is your Top & Bottom 5 MCU movies, B-boy? I'd like to know (and I will post my own lists, which I have been thinking of doing before, afterwards).
 
Last edited:
@B-Boy, So bad you saw it twice? Not saying it is wrong at all to rewatch a movie you hate, but it just strikes me as a little odd (as I wouldnt spend money or time to see a movie I disliked that much twice).
Saw it a second time for a friend's birthday!

You're right, the MCU has certainly lost some of its steam since Endgame, though I've enjoyed the Disney+ shows and most of the movies released since then (also haven't seen Eternals, but will get around to it).

My Top 5 MCU Films:
  1. Avengers: Infinity War
  2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
  3. Captain America: Civil War
  4. Guardians of the Galaxy 2
  5. Doctor Strange
My Bottom 5 MCU Films:
  1. Iron Man 3
  2. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
  3. Thor: The Dark World
  4. Captain Marvel
  5. Iron Man 2
 
Last edited:
Saw it a second time for a friend's birthday!

Then I see. I guess you just couldn't find it in your heart to decline :P

You're right, the MCU has certainly lost some of its steam since Endgame though I've enjoyed the Disney+ shows and most of the movies released since then (also haven't seen Eternals, but will get around to it).

I've watched the D+ shows (aside from the last couple of episodes of 'Hawkeye') and enjoyed them, with Moon Knight (still a couple of episodes left) an is probably the one I consistently like the most & even though the franchise has run out of steam (and many feeling it has more or less run its course), I don't doubt it will soon pick itself up soon somehow.

I think a problem for many viewers (the casual ones, at least) with the franchise now is how it seems like the D+ shows are required viewing for understanding everything (for instance, I've heard that 'WandaVision' is required to understand 'Multiverse' as it seems like they don't even give a recap for those who didn't see the abeformentioned show, mentioning things like Westview, etc in a sense that assumes everyone knows about those events) and that seem to turn away more than a few who doesn't want to watch every single piece to be able to enjoy the movies, which I totally get. It just feels like the wrong way to go.

In fact, one of my issues with the MCU is how hard they often tie the movies & the shows into one another instead of letting the movies and shows stand on their own and naturally connect to the franchise without making it necessary to see them all, but then again, at this point they really are going for the whole interconnected TV show approach (with the movies being like extended episodes with no recaps) and that will alienate a considerable portion of the viewers.

(Top & bottom list coming soon).
 
Last edited:
I think a problem for many viewers (the casual ones, at least) with the franchise now is how it seems like the D+ shows are required viewing for understanding everything (for instance, I've heard that 'WandaVision' is required to understand 'Multiverse' as it seems like they don't even give a recap for those who didn't see the abeformentioned show, mentioning things like Westview, etc in a sense that assumes everyone knows about those events) and that seem to turn away more than a few who doesn't want to watch every single piece to be able to enjoy the movies, which I totally get. It just feels like the wrong way to go.
Yeah, I agree. Also, to a Newcomer of the MCU, it might seem daunting and overwhelming with how many movies & TV Shows that have released, and how they all are inter-connected in some way. In order to get caught up, you'll need to watch majority of the movies, and even if you just watch the essential ones, there's a lot to take in. It might get to a point that in the future, when we're in Phase 5 or Phase 6, that the MCU will seem impossible to get into similar to long running manga/anime One Piece, or the Kingdom Hearts franchise.
 
Also, going to share my Top 5 & Bottom 5 MCU Movies:

Top 5: All 5 MCU movies are rated 10/10
5. Black Panther
4. Spider-Man: Homecoming (this movie made me going from not liking Spider-Man to liking Spider-Man)
3. Avengers: Infinity War
2. Spider-Man: No Way Home
1. Avengers: End Game

Bottom 5:
5. Ant-Man: 7/10
4. The Incredible Hulk: 7/10
3. Captain America: The First Avenger: 6/10
2. Thor: 6/10
1. Thor: The Dark World: 6/10
 
1. Thor: Ragnarok - Easily one of the funniest and most focused Marvel movies, and a huge step up from Dark World & the 1st Thor Movie = 7.5/10
2. Avengers: Infinity War - Worth the hype. If you've sat through Avengers Assemble and the boring Age of Ultron, this should be where the reward comes for enduring = 7/10
3. Spider-Man: No Way Home - Probably the most focused Spider-Man movie. Loved how they used all 3 iterations of the previous & current Spider-Man movies/sequels. = 7/10
4. Guardians of the Galaxy - I... AM... GROOT = 7/10
5. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness - Has its problems (the middle drags for too long), but feels more enjoyable due to being more versatile compared to the first Doctor Strange movie and has just the right amount of action & enjoyment for those who like to chew on what they watch (Fuck Elizabeth Olsen though). Definitely feels like a Sam Raimi movie due to the Evil Dead callback = 6.5/10

5. Shang-Chi & The Legend of the 10 Rings - Boring, unengaging, Awkwafina is annoying, uninteresting story or characters = 5/10
4. Thor: The Dark World - Haven't watched this since 2019 but I remember it was slightly better than Thor due to having higher stakes compared to Thor. Obviously, Alan Taylor isn't as good of a director when it comes to directing movies compared to episodes (i.e. Nixon vs. Kennedy from Mad Men), but he did a better job than Kenneth Branagh who is inconsistent as a director = 5/10
3. Avengers: Age of Ultron - An incredibly boring slog, Joss Whedon has never been this poor at directing a movie before, no real direction or actual plot, just characters beating the shit out of each other = 4.5/10
2. Thor - Typical inconsistent Kenneth Branagh mess, haven't seen it since the premiere though but I remember it being boring = 4/10
1. Black Widow - Yikes. Some of the worst editing and most uninspired acting. Florence Pugh is the only one who sounded invested, while everyone else felt like they were bored or asleep throughout the entire runtime. Bad Russian accents. Terrible villain. Uninspired action scenes. Literally all the worst aspects of the MCU coalesced into one package. Never felt engaged when I watched it in the cinema and felt like for the first time I wasted $15. = 3/10

I haven't seen much MCU movies. And yes, my ratings are more strict compared to everyone because I'm more of an art junkie compared to an entertainment junkie.
 
Also, to a Newcomer of the MCU, it might seem daunting and overwhelming with how many movies & TV Shows that have released, and how they all are inter-connected in some way. In order to get caught up, you'll need to watch majority of the movies, and even if you just watch the essential ones, there's a lot to take in.

It can indeed seem daunting with a franchise of 20+ connected movies, but I personally don't think it really became an actual big problem until we got into the currently ongoing phase with the advent of last year and those D+ shows and how they also slot into the franchise as important puzzle pieces (When first announced, it sounded like they were gonna be more like bonuses for fans and those interested and curious for more, but that seemingly shifted into something of more importance, for better or worse).
 
Wait, why f*ck Elizabeth Olsen? Just asking out of curiosity
I will not say why due to heavy controversy, but there was a Tweet from a recording where she heavily embarrassed herself when asked about Serbia. That's all.
 
Last edited:
Not much of an MCU fan (less and less as time goes by) but I saw most of it and I have genuine appreciation for some of them so I might as well join the party :

Top 5 :
1- Guardians of the Galaxy : Part of my appreciation is because I have a soft spot for this one, it was the first film of the MCU I've seen in theaters, and at the time I've had such a fun time. Rewatching it, I still have. Love the characters and the way James Gunn highlight them with the limits the MCU offers him.
2- Infinity War : Of course it's going to be in my top 5. Although I think the Russo Brothers don't have the shoulders for such a big project, I'd say most of it is a hit, nice turning point after following those characters for 10 years (not me, but most of the fans I guess). The ending always leaves me a little emotional.
3- Iron Man 3 : Well I guess I'm that weirdo... but yeah, I love this one and this is definitely one of the most entertaining of the MCU to me. Probably because I'm a fan of Shane Black's work in general and, again, despite the limits of the MCU, most of what makes Shane Black's movies and screenplays what they are is here. Underrated to me but I speak as someone who's never read more than two Marvel comics in his life (I've always been more of a DC guy).
4- Guardians of the Galaxy 2 : A little more on-the-nose than the first one but another really fun time with those magnificent bastards, even more well-rounded this time around. James Gunn likes them and it shows. Hopefully he'll deliver another time with the third film.
5- Captain America, the first Avenger : I really like the old-school aspect of this one, and Joe Johnston was a good choice for that, it makes it one of the most charming films of the franchise to me. I appreciate that the entirety of the story minus the very end happens during WW2. Easily one of the best origin stories of the MCU IMHO.

Honorable mention : Doctor Strange (haven't seen the second one yet).

Bottom 5 :
5- Iron Man 2 : The sheer definition of "meh". I don't remember much of it except that it was boring, dumb and unimpressive, despite some interesting ideas whose potential is not exploited.
4- Spider-Man No Way Home : Oh boy, am I going to get stoned for that. As much as I like the concept, the execution is a complete letdown as far as I'm concerned. Fanservice everywhere and as on-the-nose as possible ("You're amazing !"), the characters from the past are watered down, Octopus doesn't have a single good line (shame on you), and everything feels artificial. I like some ideas behind Spider-Holland's arc... but it was 150 painfully long minutes.
3- Black Widow : BORING ! One of the less consistent films of the franchise. The opening was somewhat interesting, then everything falls apart and I still don't get why they pick their directors from independant cinema if they're not going to let them add anything interesting in the direction, it's awfully generic. Again, some ideas behind the titular character's arc are decent enough, but between the paper and the execution... The last 30 minutes are a chore, the rest is just a massive bore.
2- Thor The Dark World : I guess it's not a surprise either, but yeah. I don't like the first one either but at least it was somewhat charming, this one is just pathetic despite its higher stakes. Very sad to watch, especially since the visuals are unappealing for what I remember.
1- Captain Marvel : Symptomatic of the cliché of "strong female characters" that plagues most of the Hollywood industry now. Apparently, a "strong female character" must be invincible from beginning to ending, and never feel any human emotion because emotions make us weak. Symptomatic of Hollywood writing characters whose main trait is that they are female to make a feminist movie and calling it a day. Not a single time the titular character has genuine humanity in her. Therefore, she's constantly unengaging. And so is the film.
 
Last edited:
@Wile E. the Brain, I'm a little surprised to see some input from you in this thread (as I remember you have alluded to not being much of a MCU fan) but still neat to see top & bottom lists from you. Well reasoned choices, too.

I don't blame or fault anyone for liking 'Iron Man 3'. If one is a fan of Shane Black and is open for different things (and don't especially have any "demands" on how a Marvel movie should be), I can see why some really enjoy it. On a rewatch a year or so back, I recall thinking it was decent (at least the first half, after which I felt it went a little too off the rails), but I wouldn't say it is terrible (and it feels much more like a complete movie than 'Iron Man 2', which was almost all set-up for future movies, especially 'The Avengers').

Heck, even you not liking 'No Way Home' I can understand. I liked it well myself (especially due to the portrayal and development of Spider-Holland: Feels like they finally got to what really makes Spider-Man, well, Spider-Man which I thought was great) but with the fanservice such as bringing in characters from previous Spider-Man movies I get why some have a tough time with it.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top