5 Years On: Re-visiting the Disney animated canon (starting with Snow White)

The Black Cauldron (1985)

Animation: 7/10 - The actual character animation feels a little bit inconsistent. But the key sequences and backdrops are truly stunning and I must commend The Black Cauldron in that regard.

Characters: 4/10 - This is the first Disney movie, at least in my opinion, where so many of the characters felt actively annoying. Taran is not a hero you want to root for - I don’t know whether it’s his bad voice acting, his lack of character depth or the fact that he’s just so self absorbed. There’s also the Gurgi - an irritating character in every way, from his voice to his dialogue.

Now, The Horned King - THAT’S a character. He deserved a much better Disney movie. Not only does John Hurt give a chilling portrayal, this is one villain that is striking in both his powers and visual look. I was actually going to score the characters category much lower but The Horned King was so good, he bumped this movie up some points.

Music: 7/10 - The Black Cauldron is the first Disney movie to not have any songs (I don’t include Fantasia because it’s an entirely different movie in its own right) so it relies purely on its underscore. And in fairness, the orchestration is very good,

Story: 4/10 - This is one category that I want to mark higher because The Black Cauldron has real creative moments which feel like pure fantasy. But the story is just too disjointed, with new plot twists here and there that don’t tie into the story.

Importance: 1/5 - Perhaps The Black Cauldron deserves more marks here because of the milestones it passed - the first Disney movie with no songs. The first Disney film with a PG certificate. The first Disney to be animated with CGI. However, this is literally known as the film which Disney tried to bury. The studios themselves would prefer it if we all forgot about this. The Black Cauldron is an important movie….but for all the wrong reasons.

Timelessness: 2/5 - Like I mentioned before, the legacy of The Black Cauldron means it hasn’t aged all that well. And the storytelling and choppy voice acting also leaves a mark on the film’s overall quality. Still, the animation is good and there are no pop culture references, so it hasn’t aged as awfully as it could be.

Overall Score: 25/50

My personal opinion: I’ve actually got a huge soft spot for The Black Cauldron. It is nowhere near perfect - Taran might just be the most obnoxious Disney hero ever, the plot is all over the place and the script is badly written.

That said, I’ve still got a great admiration for The Black Cauldron. It tries to be different and it doesn’t pull any punches with its darker content. The Horned King is an amazing villain and the visuals can be genuinely stunning at times.

This is one film that actually had so much potential to be amazing but just needed some better writers to achieve such heights. Maybe a live action remake is due for The Black Cauldron.
 
I'll outright surprise by admitting that I do kinda like 'The Black Cauldron', which is definitely one of the most fascinating of the pre-Disney Renaissance classics and not just because it was the film that nearly killed their animation department (which it nearly did because of its failure at the box office in the already pretty stacked summer of 1985 lineup of movies).

I like the fantasy genre so when I rewatched the movie some years ago (for the first time in a very long time) I was immediately drawn into it and I think it almost right away shows it is definitely one of Disney's most ambitious up to that point. The messy, cut up story is a more or less basic fantasy hero's quest story with the common, basic archetypes (young farmboy who dreams of being a hero, the princess who isn't a pushover, the team pet, comedic non-human sidekick, the older mentor type, the big scary villain, etc.) , but I think that as a whole, the style, scope, visuals & music helps a little. One can definitely tell a lot of work went into it.

The plot and pacing is wonky and disjointed but it gives decently coherent story (even if some of the holes and jumps in plot progression, logistics and such are a little jarring; lots of jump cuts and deleted scenes, I can tell) & the animation is for the most part quite good to great (the character animation is kinda rough at times but often it does look good and impressive, the effects are solid, the action is well staged & the rotoscoping and early CGI does look neat), the background artwork is great & there's a lot of neat setpieces. The background music score by composer Elmer Bernstein is solid overall and adds to the feel of it.

The characters are weak but I've seen worse: Taran is annoying and kind of an ass but eh, he has his moments (like in many of these hero's journey tales, the hero can be a bit of an annoyance to begin with but grows as the story progresses), Eilonwy is a decent if unremarkable princess, Fflewddur Fflam is OK but pointless (I mostly like the running gag with his magic lyre), Gurgi isn't that bad IMO (his voice makes me think of Gollum/Smeagol which makes him kinda fun), & the Horned King is a neat villain (the one character who truly works). The side characters are alright as well but nothing special (the pig and the Horned King's helper stand out the most, but the fairies and the witches are OK too).

Even with the thinly written characters that all feel quite underdeveloped to some degree, the often uninspired voice acting and the bad pacing and flimsy structure, the film does work to me to a degree due to the execution with the animation and backgrounds, the overall dark style and tone, the music, some memorable sequences and that ambitious nature and the atypically more violent and scary nature of it), but it remains a deeply flawed product. I see they really wanted to do something new, bold and creative here but in the end, it didn't measure up to the highs it aimed for but fell short due to a lack of complete belief in the project (which also shows).

As I understand, it suffered a troubled production and it probably is the "shining" example of such a production of an animated film (some of the stuff the interferers pulled was terrible and I find it surprising that the team even had a film to release in the end) and it is a shame since there is some good material to be developed. I think if the creative team would just have been able to do the movie they wanted it would've been better; I don't think it would have made much difference, I can see the results being better with more structure and balance.

Even with its flaws, I think it is an alright animated fantasy that dared to do things differently with all the darker bells and whistles (and even having animation that is not all too exaggerated but more grounded and "realistic" in a sense) and therefore I think it has left a bit of a legacy and it seem to have a growing fanbase as a cult classic and the Horned King seem to still pop up in places (the one character who remain in people's conscience) and knowing of all those production troubles, I can appreciate what the team were trying to do a lot more. It was ahead of its time in many ways (and could've been something truly good).

It is not a great movie by a long shot and it feels like more of a pilot project than anything & it is definitely the prime candidate for a live-action remake (Disney should make it their 'Lord Of The Rings'/'Hobbit' trilogy since I believe there is a wealth of material to utilize, even judging by the movie itself) and intriguing it is (due to its colorful history) and I would at least call it a decently alright one, very middle of the road but with a lot of good stuff (even though I can understand those who dislike it). Overall, I don't think Disney should feel ashamed and be embarassed of it, especially not anymore as it really isn't all that terrible.
 
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Since I doubt there will be any replies to my previous post any time soon, I'll make the addition I was thinking of the other day.

The reason why I had a lot to write this time was since I got inspired by a YouTube video I saw just a few days ago on the topic of the production of the movie and I think it is an interesting summary of what went wrong with it (and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone curious about the background and production of the movie. Not sure if you've seen it [MENTION=49950]AngusCastle[/MENTION] but I think it'd be a worthwhile watch for you as well).

The first 22 or so minutes is about the troublesome production and the rest is a breakdown of the cut and deleted scenes (which in itself is still often a big topic of discussion around the internet). I may also note I really like that thumbnail (the cauldron born sequence of the movie is great, even in its final edited stage).

 
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I watched The Black Caldron out of curiosity a while back, it being the only classic Disney movie I hadn't heard of. Disney really doesn't like to acknowledge it, do they? I can't understand why at this point. Its content is tame by today's standards, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame is even darker. It's a decent enough movie and nothing to be ashamed of.
 
[MENTION=78800]J.J.Watts[/MENTION], I'm surprised it was the giant failure it was since nothing in it is all that bad. I'm guessing it had something to do with it being ahead of its time with the content for a Disney movie (I think that had it came out in the late 90's or especially early 2000's, when I am sure it wouldn't have been edited down so much, it would have done better). With the reception it got from test audiences and the execs forcing in the censorship etc., I don't think the world was quite ready yet for an animated dark fantasy from Disney in the mid-80's. Hoping to see that live-action remake soon since I think it can be great.

Either way, their next movie was a neat return to form for the company (and what they needed after the failure of 'Cauldron') and did pave the way for their renaissance, but more on that the next time.
 
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Black Cauldron... Yeah, not a fan. In fact I think it's one of the absolute weakest films in the entire Disney animated canon. Visually it's cool, but I just don't get emotionally invested in the story at all.

The only characters I kinda enjoy are the Horned King and the pig.
 
To catch up on The Fox and the Hound, to be honest, I kind of have fondness for this one, and it's not due to nostalgia because I wasn't a fan of it when I was a kid, and I enjoyed it much more when I rewatched it like four years ago. I think it's a fairly decent movie but you can tell, indeed, that the transition between this era of Disney Animation's history and the previous one was kinda rough. It has its fair shair of beautiful and even powerful moments blended with others that are clumsily saccharine, but I have to admit that I really like the way the plot and the tone go on throughout the movie. I love the ending.

As for The Black Cauldron, as much as I like that they tried a much darker film than usual (though the dark aspects of the previous movies tend to be overlooked as a result), this one bored me to death. A visually well-done film but the story is a mess and the characters are easily among the weakest and the most annoying of the whole Disney Animated canon. The villain is cool but it's a case where you have no choice but root for him not because of his charisma, but because the other characters are such a pain in the ass and you just want them to disappear. A good reminder that being dark doesn't make a good film all by itself. But despite all of that, I do find Disney's apparent shame towards it quite a lot exaggerated and ridiculous. It doesn't deserve to be as ignored as it is.
 
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I still find it interesting how so many find the characters of 'Black Cauldron' so annoying and unlikeable when Disney has done way, way worse later on (*cough*cough*chicken little*cough*cough*), but more on that later, probably.
 
CousinMerl said:
I still find it interesting how so many find the characters of 'Black Cauldron' so annoying and unlikeable when Disney has done way, way worse later on (*cough*cough*chicken little*cough*cough*), but more on that later, probably.
Click to expand...

Oh, but the characters from Chicken Little ARE among the absolute worst the Disney Animated canon ever came up with, most of them even worse than those from The Black Cauldron I agree (Chicken Little's father especially, the absolute bottom). But that doesn't make the characters from this one even less annoying to me, sorry. :D
 
[MENTION=78686]Wile E. the Brain[/MENTION], As I find the 'Black Cauldron' characters to be mediocre overall (when I got to rewatch the movie after hearing how terrible they were, I was let down by how inoffensive I found them, even if I can see why some can be an annoyance such as Taran and Gurgi) I guess I'll have to respectfully disagree with you (as well as others) :cool:

I am looking forward to talking about 'Chicken Little' when its time comes (I just recently rewatched it for the first time since after its release and it sure was an experience. Oddly enough, I kind of didn't hate the dad as much as I thought I would, but more on that later).
 
Well, since this thread got resurrected with the rest of the post-2010 threads, it seems like it is not necessary for a new one (which I at first had been thinking). Anyway, I am looking forward to the continuation of this project, @AngusCastle.
 
Hello, everyone.

I will be back on board with this project very soon - I certainly couldn't give it up right before the BEST Disney era is coming up in just a couple of movies.

Before I do start, I'd like to say thank you to those who are still interested in following this project. In truth, the temporary closure of this site came at the perfect time for me - since my last review, I've moved to a completely new city and with a completely new job. So to have some time away from writing reviews and focus on the new chapter in my life was just what I needed right now.

And in case anyone's interested, I actually WORK for DISNEY now...sort of. The musical of Frozen has just debuted on the West End in London and I currently work as a Front of House member for the theatre where it's being shown - it's been a bit of crazy, delightful fever dream working on such a show. Feel free to ask any questions about it


Anyways, The Great Mouse Detective review is coming very shortly....
 
Great to see you back and doing well, @AngusCastle & I am glad you're still gonna continue this project (and so soon to the renaissance era at that, my personal favorite if I had to choose right now)., but I do have things to say about the remaining dark age movies

Anyhow, my my; your new occupation do really seem quite fitting and I hope you good luck on that (I remember how you weren't so overly fond of 'Frozen' in the old thread so you working there as the musical is playing do feel at least a little bit ironic, but not in a bad way, mind you). What exactly is that you do within the staff, I'm wondering?
 
The Great Mouse Detective (1986)

Animation: 7/10 – The Great Mouse Detective was made on a shoe-string budget. And whilst it is noticeable in some areas (particularly on the basic character animation), the imagery of foggy London in Victorian times is eerily stunning. Plus, a lot of the key sequences look terrific – particularly the tense clocktower chase.

Characters: 9/10 – It’s hard to fault any of the characters here. The titular hero Basil is just what you’d want him to be – he’s egotistical, smart, a little bit unhinged and all with a good heart underneath it all. Pair him up with Dawson – a gentle, kind man who is almost the opposite of Basil, and it makes for a brilliant case-solving duo.

And I can’t forget Professor Rattigan – it was a stroke of genius to cast Vincent Price for a character as eccentric and cunning as Rattigan.


Music: 7/10 – First of all, “The World’s Greatest Criminal Mind” is right up there with the best Disney villain songs and I would argue it’s the best villain song from anything pre-renaissance. Vincent Price is obviously loving every second of it, performing it with charisma and just a good amount of sleaze.

The stripper song at the pub felt a bit random and unnecessary. But apart from that, the soundtrack is well orchestrated and appropriately suspenseful.


Story: 8/10 – The story of The Great Mouse Detective follows Basil and Dawson as they investigate the kidnapping of a local toymaker, uncovering an even bigger mystery in the process. Everything about the plot reels you in and keeps you hooked from start to finish – from the terrifying opening scene in which Mr Flaversham is brutally attacked and kidnapped to the final showdown between rivals Basil and Rattigan.

What more can I say? It’s a very strong detective story, filled with suspense, comedy, action and even a little bit of poignancy.


Importance: 4/5 – There is some debate as to whether The Great Mouse Detective is the true start to the Disney renaissance or not. I would have to say no only because I associate that era with musicals, which TGMD is not. However, I will say that The Great Mouse Detective pushed the studios into the right direction by being a moderately good critical and commercial success, and demonstrating that Disney had some spark left in them.

Timelessness: 4/5 – Apart from a couple of unnecessary scenes, The Great Mouse Detective holds up wonderfully. It doesn’t feel like a product of the 1980s and it doesn’t really on anachronistic humour/references. It’s just a good old fashioned detective story.

Overall score: 39/40

My personal opinion: Whilst The Great Mouse Detective isn’t really my favourite, it is certainly an enjoyable film and definitely a rare highlight from Disney’s so called dark ages. To be honest though, I just don’t have much to say about The Great Mouse Detective. It’s a movie which I think is good but don’t necessarily get invested with on a personal level.
 
Probably an impopular opinion (and maybe shocking for you you), but after having rewatched 'The Great Mouse Detective' during the board's downtime (also in time for its 35th anniversary, I found out), I think it might be my favorite of the bronze age overall (or at least in the top three along with 'The Rescuers' for one, also a mouse-centered movie).

I think it is a very enjoyable, fun and funny & also very suspenseful movie that just works on pretty much every level, sporting an energetic style and tone, expressive animations, zippy dialogue and colorful, entertaining characters (that I find very memorable and likeable, even the villains). As I watch it, it pften brings a big smile to my face a lot (and this is a movie that had slipped me by completely well into the 2000's, more or less. I actually didn't get into it until a rewatch maybe six-seven years back.).

In many ways, I see it as a bit of a dry run or precursor for the Disney Renaissance and that is not a surprise as it is directed by John Musker & Ron Clements (and Burny Mattinson, but that's beside the point) so they certainly got off to a great start here. I have more to write but I'll leave it there until tomorrow, when I'll go into the story, characters, music & animation a little more.
 
The Great Mouse Detective actually has quite a large fan base - they’re quiet but they exist. So it doesn’t surprise me that you like it @CousinMerl And I can understand why - it’s one of the very few Disney movies of the bronze/dark ages that had a strong story with sharp dialogue and well developed characters.

Again, it’s a movie that I appreciate more than I consider a personal favourite.
 
Great Mouse Detective is pretty cool, suspenseful, scary at points, and with a heartwarming ending for Olivia, Flaversham, Dawson, and Basil. The villains are really good, it's actually Fidget who I remember most, not Ratigan (though he is sinister and intimidating. Pretty brutal of him to murder Fidget. I don't think a Disney villain ever killed their accomplice before, and it's because Fidget annoyed him or said the wrong thing. I could be wrong, though.)
 
Well, like I said in my last post, I like 'The Great Mouse Detective' quite a bit. I wouldn't say it is any sort of overlooked masterpiece of the dark/bronze age of Disney animation or anything, but I would say it is one of its brightest spots (and for all intents and puposes, I would kinda agree with those who say it is sort of the unofficial start of Disney's renaissance, with it at least being a taste of the freshness that the upcoming decaade of Disney classics would come to present).

The premise is a very simple an straightforward adventure mystery but it just really works well and packs in a lot of excitement, fun and charm, along with a lot of atmosphere, moodiness, action, drama and even a bit of creepiness and scares (but nothing that makes it dour or too dark). Clocking in at less than 75 minutes, it feels like I should have to complain about it being too short or feeling rushed but no, it just does such a great and fulfilling job with being a fast paced adventure that uses its time well.

The animation, despite being on the simpler and more "basic" side, I think it still looks great. It is more exaggerated and cartoonish, sporting a lot of energy, slickness and humor to it & combined with the great vocal performances (including some wonderfully humorous interplay) a lot of great humor and zippiness comes out of them with the movements, expressions and such (to the point of it being a great source of humor. I could pick out pretty much every other scene as an example. It might look a little rough in places, but as a whole I think it looks brighter and cleaner than anythin in the dark age (and the character animation is pretty great).

The cast of character is well defined, being likeable, entertaining and fun. Basil is a great protagonist (with the same arrogant, egotistical and eccentric attitude that you'd expect), Dawson is a good sidekick (with his calm demeanor and friendly attitude), Olivia is adorable and likeable (and has intelligence & spunk as well), Ratigan is a great villain (Vincent Price makes the role) & Fidget is a good henchman (nicely balancing the funny & the creepy; I am sure the animators had seen 'Gremlins'). The supporting characters are okay but the main characters really stand out and steal the show by a long shot.

The soundtrack works well, with some good themes all around & the few songs that there are are nice: 'World's Greatest Criminal Mind's is a neat villain song for Ratigan and it also advances the plot which is always good, 'Goodbye So Soon' is fun (I find it so hilariously twisted that the villain would record a song to be played to his nemesis right before the scheduled execution) & 'Let Me Be Good To You' (the burlesque dancer mouse girl's song,) I think is fine, even if it is pretty unnecessary and drag things out (albeit plot things do happen in the meantime and I like the detail of Fidget humming it afterwards which was amusing).

I'm not gonna talk about this movie much more but yeah, it is just one that really works and all without being one favorites. It really proved that Disney still had the touch of magic in the mid-80's and pretty much ensured that things would improve. With the characters, the adventure-mystery premise with humor and drama, the expressive animation & fast-paced story this is certainly one of the standouts of the pre-renaissance (and like I said, a good start for two of the most popular directors in Disney animation).
 
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I like The Great Mouse Detective. I especially love each of the four main characters; Basil and Dawson are both really neat variations of the classic Holmes and Watson and play of of each other perfectly, Olivia is straight up adorable, and Ratigan is one of the most charismatic Disney villains to appear up untill that point. I never see this get brought up but I suspect that his flamboyant portrayal helped shape the basic template for later villains like Jafar and Scar.
 
So anyone else really like the animation of 'Great Mouse Detective'? I often see complains about it looking cheap for an animated feature, but I actually think it stands out among Disney's bronze/dark age for how slick and expressive it is (which I said in my review), also looking very clean and doing a lot to help the humor and likeability of it.

Many of the previous entries of the dark age do look pretty shaky (with a lot of inconsistency and a scratchy look) but in TGMD I get relatively little of that, almost to the point of the animation of this one kinda giving similar vibes as the Disney renaissance (and it did push the boundaries with the implementation of CGI and the renaissance went further into using CGI as a tool for the storytelling, including the CAPS system). The animation had clearly evolved a lot and it showed, even though there was still room for improvement.

I'd maybe even go so far to say the following movie, 'Oliver & Company', looks a little rougher than this one did (and that was more of an effects heavy movie). Maybe it is just the direction of TGMD that feels more assured, I dunno.
 
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I'm a big fan of The Great Mouse Detective, definitely in my top 10 best WDAS films. I've always been fascinated by Basil and Ratigan, as individual characters and for their duality. Literally the two faces of the same coin, both look like classy gentlemen (gentlemice ?), hiding a more troubled personality. Each is so close yet so far from the other. And I really enjoy how the script plays with that (Ratigan's unnecessarily complicated plan to kill Basil, and Basil getting out of it with absurd calculations), as well as how it manages to be fun, silly, mysterious and sinister at the same time. It takes the qualities of the so called dark age and blends them with a nice preview of some of the second golden era's qualities, in my opinion. I love it, despite the somewhat fillerish tavern scene (what was the point of Basil and Dawson's drinks being drugged ?).
 
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I thought of this old thread again. Still have hope it will return eventually when @AngusCastle is ready.

Despite not one of my favorites, I'm kinda looking forward to talk a little about 'Oliver & Company'.
*Streets Of Gold starts playing*

 
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